|
|
Post by MartinT on Aug 8, 2024 19:50:39 GMT
You might think so, and I welcome you to continue experimenting with it. However, 10 turns gives a little more inductance, requiring fewer chokes. It's close enough that I know it's never going to work in my system.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 8, 2024 21:13:45 GMT
When we talk about the the choke cable, i want to highlight the idea, which i think makes a lot of sense.
What we want to achieve is the lowest possible noise floor, going into our DAC.
The ethernet choke cable is a way to passively filter the noise, as the last step.
The alternative is to have electronics involved, right before our very sensitive DAC. Electronics always means some level of noise... This is why i believe that the ferrit choke makes a lot of sense since it can (in theory) achieve an even lower last step noise floor, into your DAC.
I just wanted to share this in-case it was not clear for anyone.
|
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Aug 9, 2024 6:20:20 GMT
You can have electronics involved and some are designed for very low noise. That's why I use an EtherREGEN.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 9, 2024 8:03:40 GMT
yes, for sure. But the theory is to lower the noise floor even more, as the last step, using passive filtering.
I personally believe the throttle cable concept can make it better in all situations, even when we already have a crazy low noise floor, since there will always be remaining noise that can potentially be cleaned up even more, passively.
It is possible that it won´t better your setup MartinT. This is more of a general statement to try to help people understand the concept and point out the importance of getting the ingrediencies of the Throttle cable right, especially if you already have a low noise floor to protect.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 9, 2024 8:48:35 GMT
I am in the camp something like this s is going to be system dependent.
Martin already has a really low noise floor. The only person I heard with a lower noise floor is Tony.
In my system I would say the difference is subtle.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 9, 2024 9:39:36 GMT
Yes, but in this case we need to be very clear when we review the "throttle cable" since it is not a product as such.
To help others we need to be very specific exactly what we tried, and what the throttle looked like and consisted of, and what it replaced.
Saying that "the throttle worked" or "the throttle didn´t work" unfortunately doesn´t say anything, in my opinion.
It is worth knowing that the guy´s on that German forum has spend months figuring out the best recipe for that ultimate throttle design. Then they sent it around amongst each other, to get input from everyone, and they all reported similar improvements despite having different setups.
|
|
|
|
Post by Clive on Aug 9, 2024 9:56:00 GMT
My view from trying the cable my system is:
1) The Throttle Cable can be very beneficial where there’s little attention to noise control in the first place
2) The Throttle Cable will give a more reliable result if used in conjunction with the WiFi extender as per Eric’s 2023 recommendations (use a really clean power supply)
3) Systems already with good noise suppression will give more variable results (potentially negative ones)
My latest cable is totally to Eric’s specifications - the results with my original similar cables using a superficially similar ferrite were very similar - quite possibly this was purely down to good fortune.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 9, 2024 10:06:39 GMT
My view from trying the cable my system is: 1) The Throttle Cable can be very beneficial where there’s little attention to noise control in the first place 2) The Throttle Cable will give a more reliable result if used in conjunction with the WiFi extender as per Eric’s 2023 recommendations (use a really clean power supply) 3) Systems already with good noise suppression will give more variable results (potentially negative ones) My latest cable is totally to Eric’s specifications - the results with my original similar cables using a superficially similar ferrite were very similar - quite possibly this was purely down to good fortune. Right, i agree. If we assume that Eric´s latest throttle cable is very good in most situations (even if it might not!) then it very much comes down to your noise floor in the receiving device, if you hear the improvements or not, i guess. I mean, if you have a power related "issue" in your streamer then that will set the boundaries for how low your noise floor can become, and therefore you might not hear an improvement of an even better throttle design until you targeted the mains situation. Similarly if you also have something else connected to your streamer, that is much dirtier than the ethernet connection now is. These are the types of factors that we need to account for when talking about noise floor reduction, at extreme levels. |
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 9, 2024 10:46:48 GMT
What I like about Eric efforts is that it is cheap mod is not complex to do and that most people will benefit from.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 9, 2024 10:52:47 GMT
What I like about Eric efforts is that it is cheap mod is not complex to do and that most people will benefit from. Agree. FYI, i have now seen many people with rather amazing digital domain gear, streamers and DAC´s, powered by crazy expensive power supplies, that has benefited from this cheap mod. There are actually reasons to believe it is not only good for its price, i would say. Note that this is just a feeling i now have after having watched this unfold of several forums (and tried some of it my self). |
|
|
|
Post by stellabagpuss on Aug 10, 2024 10:47:05 GMT
Before work... l tried the removal of the Throttle cable, l had simply just carried using it, but l had added the Gustard N18Pro.
As l've mentioned, l have limited time to listen, just the weekends, adding the N18Pro with LB brought a big improvement period, but l was noticing that,again that tilt in extra presence, that initially brings in an incredible inner detail, however play something like Sade "Jazebel" where her voice has a natural siblance on phrases, it's just too much, and a definite hot 🔥 spot. Also lower bass end is slightly lean.
So l then removed the Throttle and tried a Ugreen CAT 8, where the HOT issue had gone, Sade voice still has siblance, but was totally more realistic, and the lower end Bass was better by a country mile. l then removed the Throttle from the Ugreen CAT 8 gaming cable and swapped from the Ugreen CAT 8 to the CAT 8 gaming cable, and surprisingly greated with a more polished sound.
So my updated takeaway... Running a standard switch into the LAN of my Gustard 26 the Throttle works well, certainly the siblance or Hot is minor. Exchange the switch for the N18Pro... and it's a case of over egging the pudding, l believe the N18Pro has additional filtering in its switch. Hopefully this may help others...
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 10, 2024 11:23:18 GMT
Yes, there is definitely a matter of using the right throttle for the right noise situation.
I got a throttle prototype that was basically two core´s only, that i tried instead of my mk1 throttle (same as yours).
In my system (with the wifi extender) the two core only throttle was really bad, compared to the one i had.
Then i went to a friends house who had an modified audiophile switch and we tested both throttles and it was the opposite for him, also very clearly.
My conclusion is that the each throttle has to be tailored for the noise profile that goes into it, to have the best effect. (that is at least what i think...)
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 28, 2024 8:08:54 GMT
After a lot of waiting i finally got my ingredients for the latest version of the Throttle setup yesterday.
After some work with winding 5 meters of ethernet cable on to different ferrit´s i could very happily conclude that it was as effective as i was hoping, compared to the more simple first version i had.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 28, 2024 8:24:01 GMT
Do you have a link to the new method. I am looking forward to your a deeper understanding of your subjective findings.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 28, 2024 10:22:47 GMT
Do you have a link to the new method. I am looking forward to your a deeper understanding of your subjective findings. With respect to the people on that German forum, who has put a lot of effort on this, I am a bit hesitant to share the exact recipe since they have asked to please keep it inside their forum, for now. I am not very experienced with other types of such ethernet noise targeting methods, like expensive switches, re-clocking or fiber optics and so on... These Germans are and i have chosen to believe in them and their experience. I have a very similar setup, except for another power supply for the WiFi extender, going into the throttle cable, as suggested on the German forum. For me, going from the V1 throttle cable to V3 brought more of everything (resolution, soundstage, timbre, focused bass...) but most of all it brought peace, relief and calmness, which was very welcome. It is like my shoulders went down and nothing is no-longer feeling intrusive, even in less perfect recordings. In my case i still only have a Audio Quest Cinnamon coax cable going from my streamer to my DAC, which now is the weak link i believe. I also don´t have any attention to power, like a DC blocker and/or conditioner. For that reason there is still a lot more noise to target, i am sure! I think i am now done with what is going into my streamer, in terms of ethernet sourced noise. That is at least how i feel right now and a sign of my trust in these German guy´s :-) (I am very much aware that i don´t know if it can be even better, since i haven´t compared) |
|
Morph
Rank: Duo
Posts: 62
|
Post by Morph on Aug 28, 2024 17:24:19 GMT
Having read through our German friends forum re the V3 of the throttle cable a thought occurred to me. I made two V1 cables, one for the LAN port of the R26 and another for the Melco N1ZH. I've been listening via the R26 LAN since adopting the throttle cable so the Melco has been turned off. "Why not try linking the two V1s using the SoTM Cat 6 LAN isolator I have somewhere", after some digging I found the SoTM and joined the V1s together. Early days but I think this is a good option for me. Whilst the guys over there are advancing this aspect of listening, I myself have come to the realisation that at age age of 60 my hearing has limitations, but I'm definitely liking what I'm hearing with the two linked together. Maybe I'm deluding myself here so I'll remove the new installation in a couple of days a see/hear what's what.
Morph.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 28, 2024 19:15:56 GMT
I have now listened a lot this evening with my new V3.
Since i live in an apartment i often check my mobile phone db meter since i like to make sure that i don´t play to loud.
One thing that is obvious is that I now play louder (according to the db meter) while the sound doesn´t appear loud. My own conclusion (That others hopefully can confirm?) is that much glare and sibilance it now gone and this has a tendency to make it sound louder to our ears. I assume it is an unpleasant unnatural sound that our brain don´t like?
In addition, i usually get a bit of listening fatigue in my ears when playing louder. An uncomfortable pressure in my ears that also can stay a while after my listening session (if playing loud). This is also much less of a problem now.
Apart from this i have taken a step towards music, i feel. It is less HiFi and more music.
Big thumbs up and a big improvement from the V1 throttle cable.
This V3 throttle cable is also considerably more expensive at around £130. But to me it is an absolute steal!
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 29, 2024 6:06:08 GMT
I should add also that i now bought all the ferrits from the proper ferrit manufacturer, which is more expensive but hopefully more effective.
To sum-up the whole WiFi extender-throttle cable idea, which i think makes a lot of sense, it is about having as few physically connected devices as possible in the signal path, prior to the streamer.
Every electronic device added will add some type of noise, in certain frequencies, that needs to be cleaned up before your streamer.
Yes, many devices do significantly lower the noise very effectively(!) but some noise will remain (i believe) since it is an electronic device.
With this particular WiFi extender you only need that one in the signal path, before your streamer.
Then you get a very good power supply for that WiFi Extender, to lower its noise output as much as possible.
In addition you then clean up the remaining noise using the suggested ferrit combination, before your streamer.
The idea is basically that less is more and passive filtering is the most effective last step. According to the German forum this gives a lower noise floor than what they have managed to achieve using any other method that they have tried, that are much more complicated and expensive.
Please correct me if i got this explanation wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by stellabagpuss on Aug 29, 2024 8:36:19 GMT
Thanks for sharing Tobias, it looks well worth a go. My only issue l could see,would be if your streamer already has filtering built into the unit already.
|
|
Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
Member is Online
|
Post by Tobias on Aug 29, 2024 9:11:33 GMT
I don´t think it matters if there is even more filtering in the streamer. It will then remove even more noise or not. At least i know it has now successfully been tested with many different streamers.
In my mind you can´t clean the signal too many times? (again, in my mind...)
But the streamer will of course add its own noise to the signal, since it is yet another electronic device with power and processing, before our DAC step...
|
|
