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Post by Clive on Jul 9, 2024 17:17:52 GMT
I’ve just tried the “throttle cable” with my FMCs and SFP+ DAC cable. First off I believe the translation should really be “choke cable” but anyway….
I wasn’t sure what to expect with the FMCs in place, maybe they aren’t needed but I don’t suppose they do any harm and probably multiple methods of noise reduction should be advantageous. I’ll compare when burn in is complete.
I used Ugreen CAT8, it wound tighter over the ferrite doughnut than I thought it would. I took care not to stress the cable structure.
Was it good? It was a slam dunk. Some slight traces of vocal harshness are cleaned up. Soundstage is even better (more space), mostly in the treble region. Greater separation and the sound is even more vivid, which is probably due to improved dynamics. I now need to burn in the cable as I bought a longer Ugreen than I had been using to allow for the extra length needed for the choke windings.
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 9, 2024 21:24:11 GMT
I’ve just tried the “throttle cable” with my FMCs and SFP+ DAC cable. First off I believe the translation should really be “choke cable” but anyway…. I wasn’t sure what to expect with the FMCs in place, maybe they aren’t needed but I don’t suppose they do any harm and probably multiple methods of noise reduction should be advantageous. I’ll compare when burn in is complete. I used Ugreen CAT8, it wound tighter over the ferrite doughnut than I thought it would. I took care not to stress the cable structure. Was it good? It was a slam dunk. Some slight traces of vocal harshness are cleaned up. Soundstage is even better (more space), mostly in the treble region. Greater separation and the sound is even more vivid, which is probably due to improved dynamics. I now need to burn in the cable as I bought a longer Ugreen than I had been using to allow for the extra length need for the choke windings. Great result Clive... l found 1 metre to be a minium length,incredibly the effect is the same if used on longer lengths. The mad thing,this now sounds better direct to the ethernet switch than running via FMC, l was skeptical.. but the throttle cable is really as Clive stated a "Slam Dunk" |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 10, 2024 6:16:54 GMT
Just thought l should start a new thread for this tweek, before the DAC cable gets,de railed. Here's what's needed 1 x Large Ferrite Ring, 61mmm diameter 5 x Cable Ferrite Clamps LAN Cable of choice at least 1 metre long. Wrap LAN around Large ring 8 times. 3 Ferrite clamps one end 2 the other end. You can use your preferred LAN cable, and seems to improve on any cable. l've had great results with Ugreen CAT 7 or 8 cables. You need to remember you loose about 0.5 to 0.75 metres in length of your cable, due to wrapping around the large ferrite ring. This is the link, where l believed John shared with Vic, then Vic with myself l.. All l can say thanks Eric! ethernet-sound.com/das-drosselkabel-minimierung-der-gleichtaktstoerungen-auf-dem-letzten-meter/ Throttle Cable by Damien Read, on Flickr |
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trhh
Rank: Soloist
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Post by trhh on Jul 10, 2024 7:34:11 GMT
My “throttle cable” just before the DAC:  Torben |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 10, 2024 8:02:30 GMT
Excellent... Have you made the measurements yourself?
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 10, 2024 18:33:00 GMT
Now... Just a thought.. being that a LAN cable has copper, and so does a DAC cable, the question ... Will a Throttle Cable have a similar effect on a DAC Cable?
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trhh
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Post by trhh on Jul 11, 2024 5:50:02 GMT
Now... Just a thought.. being that a LAN cable has copper, and so does a DAC cable, the question ... Will a Throttle Cable have a similar effect on a DAC Cable? No The role of this common mode noise filter is to selectively reduce noise propagating in common mode while allowing signals, which flow in differential mode, to pass. The setup reduces electrical noise, which would otherwise be sent over the ethernet cable to the audio equipment The digital signal that is flowing through the network is still the same signal once it passes through the filter, the filter cannot alter the digital audio signal in anyway, as it is a purely passive setup Torben |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 11, 2024 6:48:44 GMT
Now... Just a thought.. being that a LAN cable has copper, and so does a DAC cable, the question ... Will a Throttle Cable have a similar effect on a DAC Cable? No The role of this common mode noise filter is to selectively reduce noise propagating in common mode while allowing signals, which flow in differential mode, to pass. The setup reduces electrical noise, which would otherwise be sent over the ethernet cable to the audio equipment The digital signal that is flowing through the network is still the same signal once it passes through the filter, the filter cannot alter the digital audio signal in anyway, as it is a purely passive setup Torben Thanks for the reply Torben, so to clarify a DAC cable is not effected from Common mode noise interference. l did ask, I regards to your graph,is that your own? Any further information from your experience would be really helpful,to us all on TAS. Damien |
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Morph
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Post by Morph on Jul 11, 2024 9:28:44 GMT
I thought I'd give this a go so have ordered a ferrite ring and clamps. There's a 2mtr Ugreen Cat 8 here already. Once wound around the ferrite ring there will be some cable not covered by the clamps due to the 2mtr length. Should all of the cable after the ferrite ring be enclosed in ferrite clamps or will it be fine to have an unenclosed length of cable before the clamps? Hope that makes sense!
Thanks
Morph
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Post by Clive on Jul 11, 2024 10:10:34 GMT
I thought I'd give this a go so have ordered a ferrite ring and clamps. There's a 2mtr Ugreen Cat 8 here already. Once wound around the ferrite ring there will be some cable not covered by the clamps due to the 2mtr length. Should all of the cable after the ferrite ring be enclosed in ferrite clamps or will it be fine to have an unenclosed length of cable before the clamps? Hope that makes sense! Thanks Morph My understanding is that you can add to the ferrite clamps if there is spare cable but you don’t have to. I used a 3m cable with 5 clamps in total (2 one side of the ring and 3 on the other) and the result is superb. I don’t believe the config is uber critical. |
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Morph
Rank: Duo
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Post by Morph on Jul 11, 2024 10:24:00 GMT
I thought I'd give this a go so have ordered a ferrite ring and clamps. There's a 2mtr Ugreen Cat 8 here already. Once wound around the ferrite ring there will be some cable not covered by the clamps due to the 2mtr length. Should all of the cable after the ferrite ring be enclosed in ferrite clamps or will it be fine to have an unenclosed length of cable before the clamps? Hope that makes sense! Thanks Morph My understanding is that you can add to the ferrite clamps if there is spare cable but you don’t have to. I used a 3m cable with 5 clamps in total (2 one side of the ring and 3 on the other) and the result is superb. I don’t believe the config is uber critical. Thanks Clive that's what I was hoping to hear. I've just been overthinking this! Cheers Morph |
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trhh
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Post by trhh on Jul 11, 2024 12:11:02 GMT
You need to use a extremely flexible and bendable (90° bend radius) ethernet cable - with a very good bend radius. The radius specifications help to protect the integrity of transmissions. Excessive bends in the copper wire can affect the twists and impact performance. Torben  |
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Post by Clive on Jul 12, 2024 17:33:34 GMT
I wanted to make sure I have the ideal setup for my system so I made 3 comparisons - all with throttle cable - surely this only reliably applies to my network which has copper delivering broadband to the house, with fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) a little way up the road.
Direct into router (throttle cable but no FMCs)
- Some harshness on vocals and guitar
- Reduced depth
- Not as satisfying
Zyxel switch between router and throttle cable, no FMCs
- Same harshness as above
- Faux detail
- Good soundstage
FMCs with Amphenol DAC cable
- sibilance totally natural
- Depth
- Rich foundation
- Unctuous quality with clarity
Then…
My inquisitiveness got the better of me so I assembled another throttle cable, this time as an extension cable with CAT 5e/6…with the FMCs in the network.
Tried the new CAT5e/6 throttle. Vs the Ugreen throttle it’s ever so slightly behind but it’s marginal (similar to Damien’s experience).
A bit less marginal is using 2 throttles cascaded. It’s the best config for my system, just a touch more body and improved left/right staging.
I don’t believe my findings necessarily will apply to other systems and networks but the differences are easily noticed so it’s well worth trying out a few different configurations.
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 12, 2024 20:07:03 GMT
Thanks for reporting Clive... I think it's going to vary on each network.
l haven't really had enough time to do a lengthy test. But at the moment, l've Ditched the FMC side to the R26 playback side. But l'm still running FMC on the server end. I'll try to do a test over the weekend, with the LAN replacing the FMC to the LAN.
I have to also admit, l am also having to get use to other positive changes in replacing my network switches for Cisco 2960,but like yourself, the Throttle just seems to improve whatever its on the end of.
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Post by protegimus on Jul 12, 2024 21:07:37 GMT
Hi, as originally kindly linked by Tobias on this forum [thanks Tobias !], the participants (in particular Eric, to whom we are indebted) have spent many months developing, testing and evolved the throttle cable through multiple iterations. Please refer to the section, "Construction instructions" - it contains exact specification (part numbers) for each of the the components required. The Würth ferrites are directly available from mouser, etc. they are inexpensive and delivery is efficient.
They were chosen due to the material formulation attenuating optimally in the required frequency bands (datasheet links are included and you can also sign up for RedExpert [their modelling tool] for free). Cat5e / Cat6 copper UTP cables are recommended to avoid issues with effectiveness by screening for the 1m length.
When winding take care not to kink the cable, as that will introduce mode conversion (imbalance in the differential signal path) - exactly what we're trying to avoid.
Now, if you've gone and ordered China ferrites you may have some success and if so then great; but there's really no knowing what they are good for as the vendors don't provide any data.
For example, the Yokive toroid linked on the Lenco forum may well provide a benefit at low frequencies, as it implies it's suitable for power circuits. So really off on its own tangent.
The recommended parts are very high quality, the result is worthwhile. As for Tobias, I'd recommend anyone interested in streaming try this.
Also, throttle cable is used in the context of the paper from which the technique was originally derived, it is not a translation. |
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Post by protegimus on Jul 13, 2024 12:24:19 GMT
Hi Clive, Your result using the throttle cable in conjunction with FMCs is inline with expectations. Eric's strategy for dealing with the issues included a number of methods, including FMCs to provide isolation. In his case it was using wireless Ethernet with battery power supplies (used to break the path through PE for common mode noise and also to avoid SMPS noise injection).
stellabagpuss re your question about whether DAC is affected by common mode noise - the answer is yes; however they are designed to minimise the effect through the use of shielded cable construction (e.g. quad shielding), short runs (typically <5m for passive DAC), pseudo differential signalling and pre-emphasis to minimise reflections and loss. The chokes recommended for use with the throttle cables are tuned for 100Base-T, so not optimal for this setup yet stranger things have happened ... |
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jul 14, 2024 9:07:31 GMT
Hi, as originally kindly linked by Tobias on this forum [thanks Tobias !],... Hi Clive , Your result using the throttle cable in conjunction with FMCs is inline with expectations. Eric's strategy for dealing with the issues included a number of methods, including FMCs to provide isolation. In his case it was using wireless Ethernet with battery power supplies (used to break the path through PE for common mode noise and also to avoid SMPS noise injection).
stellabagpuss re your question about whether DAC is affected by common mode noise - the answer is yes; however they are designed to minimise the effect through the use of shielded cable construction (e.g. quad shielding), short runs (typically <5m for passive DAC), pseudo differential signalling and pre-emphasis to minimise reflections and loss. The chokes recommended for use with the throttle cables are tuned for 100Base-T, so not optimal for this setup yet stranger things have happened ... Thanks. I´m glad someone tried the amazing throttle cable after a few months and posted your findings. Great stuff! The pairing with the WiFi extender, in client mode (as mentioned), might actually be as good as it gets (with clean power) as source into a streamer(?). |
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Post by John on Jul 14, 2024 10:26:00 GMT
My friend has just tried it with a WiFi extender with a power bank and says it makes a bigger difference than the throttle cable.
This is Eric favourite tweak from 2023
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jul 14, 2024 10:28:14 GMT
My friend has just tried it with a WiFi extender with a power bank and says it makes a bigger difference than the throttle cable. This is Eric favourite tweak from 2023 I agree. That was my impression as well. But the throttle cable is all about the right ingrediencies of ferrit´s to target your exact noise frequencies going into the cable. |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 14, 2024 13:34:05 GMT
Hi, as originally kindly linked by Tobias on this forum [thanks Tobias !],... Hi Clive , Your result using the throttle cable in conjunction with FMCs is inline with expectations. Eric's strategy for dealing with the issues included a number of methods, including FMCs to provide isolation. In his case it was using wireless Ethernet with battery power supplies (used to break the path through PE for common mode noise and also to avoid SMPS noise injection).
stellabagpuss re your question about whether DAC is affected by common mode noise - the answer is yes; however they are designed to minimise the effect through the use of shielded cable construction (e.g. quad shielding), short runs (typically <5m for passive DAC), pseudo differential signalling and pre-emphasis to minimise reflections and loss. The chokes recommended for use with the throttle cables are tuned for 100Base-T, so not optimal for this setup yet stranger things have happened ... Thanks. I´m glad someone tried the amazing throttle cable after a few months and posted your findings. Great stuff! The pairing with the WiFi extender, in client mode (as mentioned), might actually be as good as it gets (with clean power) as source into a streamer(?). Well l only wished l had tried it earlier Tobias. Minor update, that may be of interest. l ditched my FMC on my streamer side, and replaced with Throttle on my Ugreen CAT 8 cable, it just sounded so much natural a clear. So today l removed my 2nd FMC that runs my server, for just LAN. The sound took a number of steps back running LAN, going back to FMC, the magic came back. So oddly FMC will stay on the server side. As Tobias and Eric has mentioned,it's all about increasing the impedance, so it covers a wider frequency range |
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