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Post by stellabagpuss on Jul 23, 2024 15:05:48 GMT
Hi Damien Yes the equipment will give you the results, although knowing how to intrept those results and setting up the equipment correctly for that task does take a while to master. Experiance helps a great deal as well D. SDR you could use this, for you chaps having 30Mhz BW would more than sufficent, although here the RBW (resolution band width) is important as the DANL (displayed average noise level) are important for quality repeatable results imho. I would suggest at least 140dBm. You could use a Scope's FFT's this has the advantge of starting usually from around DC rather than 9Khz (Spectrum analyser) You an purchase a quality 12 bit Siglent/ Rigol from around £450 now this also has a lot of tools that would be useful plus FFT's you can made your probes but again around £325 for set. Worth considering a shared purschase.
Obviously we are EE chaps for a living and having physical layer testing abilities (all levels) are not a viabale option unless you work with this technology. Although you can make a test fixture for ethernet basic measurments, using impedence matched stripline, 6 layer board with various test points to enable connection to test equipment, this would help you in this area I feel.
Thanks T.... Just my luck, l sold my Winradio G31 SDR a few years back, that would have been ideal, as it was 16bit, and started at 0 to 30mhz with zoomable FFT, but as you quite rightly said, it's would be a case learning to use the probes, and hoping they not to sensitive, etc, l do have a Air Spy unit, so l'll take a look at the Specs. One last question, what modulation would you suggest AM or FM? |
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Post by John on Jul 23, 2024 15:33:23 GMT
Just to say before using the Aurender A15 I preferred using the throttle cable, but this has changed.
I have been using my torture track the Deepness by Those who ride with giants as it's great track for hearing how well balanced the sound is. Just using the UGreen sound has a bit more body bass is clearer. The A15 has built in isolation and wondered how this might change with the A15.
Just has to show like most tweaks it is system dependent.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jul 23, 2024 15:33:42 GMT
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jul 23, 2024 15:38:34 GMT
Just to say, the RJ45 cable I use is a Ugreen7 thingy as well. I also have a bonkers Crystal De vinci thingy, its way better BUT it should be and it doesn't fit ALL systems, again these gains & losses and very system dependant.
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Post by Clive on Jul 23, 2024 16:41:21 GMT
Sibilance has me climbing the walls. It’s only a fraction more..but it tips the sound away from natural sibilance. I’m not believing it’s down to the ferrite core. I believe it’s due to the unshielded CAT 5e cable which was recommended for easy wrapping around the ferrite. CAT 8 doesn’t exhibit unnatural sibilance….in my system. I believe cable shielding also hinders/blocks the ferrite to work as the shielding then also has a negative impact from that aspect... For me it worked best with unshielded cables but then i also don´t have any bare cable exposes, except for around the ferrites. I had sibilance problem when trying a completely different type of ferrite combination, that i thought would be better. But no, it was much worse. It is important that we use the correct recipe for your exact noise profile, which is "impossible" to know without trial and error. This is why i follow their (Eric´s) exact setup from start to finish, into the streamer. I think we all understand that what works is down to trial and error or measurement (if you have the equipment and skills). I’ve not yet tried the WiFi device specified by Eric, it’s likely I’ll get around to it. However it’s not really possible to replicate everything, I don‘t recall how Eric receives his broadband, 4G/5G is likely best, followed by fibre. I only have fibre to the network cabinet on our road, the final run is copper….probably a poor option. I believe this is why my FMCs still bring significant benefit whereas some others who have fibre to their property can remove some or all of their FMCs. Like yourself I had assumed the CAT 8 shielding wouldn’t be ideal to wrap around ferrite cores but in my system it’s the CAT 8 which is superior. I’m sure with measurements the ideal spec could be arrived at. BTW I find that two Throttle Cables cascaded sound better than a single one. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 16:54:51 GMT
I believe cable shielding also hinders/blocks the ferrite to work as the shielding then also has a negative impact from that aspect... For me it worked best with unshielded cables but then i also don´t have any bare cable exposes, except for around the ferrites. I had sibilance problem when trying a completely different type of ferrite combination, that i thought would be better. But no, it was much worse. It is important that we use the correct recipe for your exact noise profile, which is "impossible" to know without trial and error. This is why i follow their (Eric´s) exact setup from start to finish, into the streamer. I think we all understand that what works is down to trial and error or measurement (if you have the equipment and skills). I’ve not yet tried the WiFi device specified by Eric, it’s likely I’ll get around to it. However it’s not really possible to replicate everything, I don‘t recall how Eric receives his broadband, 4G/5G is likely best, followed by fibre. I only have fibre to the network cabinet on our road, the final run is copper….probably a poor option. I believe this is why my FMCs still bring significant benefit whereas some others who have fibre to their property can remove some or all of their FMCs. Like yourself I had assumed the CAT 8 shielding wouldn’t be ideal to wrap around ferrite cores but in my system it’s the CAT 8 which is superior. I’m sure with measurements the ideal spec could be arrived at. BTW I find that two Throttle Cables cascaded sound better than a single one. I can´t see that it matters what happens before the WiFi repeater/extender since that is where the noise will start. Everything prior to that is irrelevant and physically decoupled, in my mind. If doing exactly like him, then the noise level output from the throttle cable should be exactly like for him, since he is of-grid with both ethernet and power. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2024 17:05:12 GMT
I can´t see that it matters what happens before the WiFi repeater/extender since that is where the noise will start. Everything prior to that is irrelevant and physically decoupled, in my mind. Be careful not to make assumptions. When I was running an optical link, it was tempting to assume likewise, that anything before it didn't matter. Wrong, I heard the effects of different power supplies and clock cables before the fibre optic run quite clearly. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 17:14:49 GMT
I can´t see that it matters what happens before the WiFi repeater/extender since that is where the noise will start. Everything prior to that is irrelevant and physically decoupled, in my mind. Be careful not to make assumptions. When I was running an optical link, it was tempting to assume likewise, that anything before it didn't matter. Wrong, I heard the effects of different power supplies and clock cables before the fibre optic run quite clearly. Yes, when physically connecting two systems (HiFi or not) you will always have some level of noise pollution between the systems (even with optical), especially when they have different level of noise and one side is extremely sensitive to noise. But i agree also. The WiFi repeater/extender can also pick up different levels of interference thru its antenna, i assume... |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jul 23, 2024 17:16:57 GMT
Be careful not to make assumptions. When I was running an optical link, it was tempting to assume likewise, that anything before it didn't matter. Wrong, I heard the effects of different power supplies and clock cables before the fibre optic run quite clearly. wholeheartedly agree 100% Martin, have seen this many times leading clients down that long & very deep rabbit hole, only to feel somewhat depressed at following a wrong turn and being kept on that hamster treadmill.
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Post by Clive on Jul 23, 2024 17:17:26 GMT
I can´t see that it matters what happens before the WiFi repeater/extender since that is where the noise will start. Everything prior to that is irrelevant and physically decoupled, in my mind. Be careful not to make assumptions. When I was running an optical link, it was tempting to assume likewise, that anything before it didn't matter. Wrong, I heard the effects of different power supplies and clock cables before the fibre optic run quite clearly. The AOC optical cables between FMCs have for a number of us been bettered by copper DAC cable. It could be assumed the AOC cable should be as good as a WiFi break but as it happens copper can be better. You never can tell, as Martin suggests, we should be careful when making assumptions. It’s surprising what can matter and what doesn’t for a specific system |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 17:23:46 GMT
Be careful not to make assumptions. When I was running an optical link, it was tempting to assume likewise, that anything before it didn't matter. Wrong, I heard the effects of different power supplies and clock cables before the fibre optic run quite clearly. The AOC optical cables between FMCs have for a number of us been bettered by copper DAC cable. It could be assumed the AOC cable should be as good as a WiFi break but as it happens copper can be better. You never can tell, as Martin suggests, we should be careful when making assumptions. It’s surprising what can matter and what doesn’t for a specific system The problem with optical is that the signal also needs to be converted again, in the destination gear, which causes noise. There is no DAC today that can work with the light signal so at the end of the day it needs to be converted back into PCM (or whatever it is called) and that process causes some degree of noise, even if it might be less then what your had previously (or worse). |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jul 23, 2024 17:49:59 GMT
The AOC optical cables between FMCs have for a number of us been bettered by copper DAC cable. It could be assumed the AOC cable should be as good as a WiFi break but as it happens copper can be better. You never can tell, as Martin suggests, we should be careful when making assumptions. It’s surprising what can matter and what doesn’t for a specific system The problem with optical is that the signal also needs to be converted again, in the destination gear, which causes noise. There is no DAC today that can work with the light signal so at the end of the day it needs to be converted back into PCM (or whatever it is called) and that process causes some degree of noise, even if it might be less then what your had previously (or worse). That is the knub of the matter, the conversion of light <> electrical and back again ALWAYS something lost on conversions.
However I can think of three dacs that take a direct light pipe/Optical SPC and Optical USB inputs, although you may be a little uncomfortable with the cost. I wouldn't say it was significantly better, I would suggest significantly different.
Until direct cerebral communications in real time, then you earthlings are stuck with patching up what your currently have  |
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Post by Clive on Jul 23, 2024 17:53:54 GMT
The AOC optical cables between FMCs have for a number of us been bettered by copper DAC cable. It could be assumed the AOC cable should be as good as a WiFi break but as it happens copper can be better. You never can tell, as Martin suggests, we should be careful when making assumptions. It’s surprising what can matter and what doesn’t for a specific system The problem with optical is that the signal also needs to be converted again, in the destination gear, which causes noise. There is no DAC today that can work with the light signal so at the end of the day it needs to be converted back into PCM (or whatever it is called) and that process causes some degree of noise, even if it might be less then what your had previously (or worse). It seems like the issue is jitter in the conversion but the same can be said for switches and WiFi extenders. Hopefully your V4 extender is as good or better than Eric’s V3, maybe he’s commented on this. The Ian Canada battery he suggests should be good but so too can be the Supercap ps used by at least one person I know of, it’s much better than using a power bank. All I’m getting at is that is we need to try different configurations for ourselves in our own system context. I don’t believe there is one single best path and we all have a finite set of options we have the time and enthusiasm to try. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 17:54:15 GMT
The problem with optical is that the signal also needs to be converted again, in the destination gear, which causes noise. There is no DAC today that can work with the light signal so at the end of the day it needs to be converted back into PCM (or whatever it is called) and that process causes some degree of noise, even if it might be less then what your had previously (or worse). That is the knub of the matter, the conversion of light <> electrical and back again ALWAYS something lost on conversions.
However I can think of three dacs that take a direct light pipe/Optical SPC and Optical USB inputs, although you may be a little uncomfortable with the cost. I wouldn't say it was significantly better, I would suggest significantly different.
Until direct cerebral communications in real time, then you earthlings are stuck with patching up what your currently have Yes, but then they still convert that signal inside the DAC housing (noise), before the actual DA conversion. Since those are expensive DAC´s they have probably put a lot of effort in reducing that conversion noise before the actual DA conversion. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 17:59:40 GMT
The problem with optical is that the signal also needs to be converted again, in the destination gear, which causes noise. There is no DAC today that can work with the light signal so at the end of the day it needs to be converted back into PCM (or whatever it is called) and that process causes some degree of noise, even if it might be less then what your had previously (or worse). It seems like the issue is jitter in the conversion but the same can be said for switches and WiFi extenders. Hopefully your V4 extender is as good or better than Eric’s V3, maybe he’s commented on this. The Ian Canada battery he suggests should be good but so too can be the Supercap ps used by at least one person I know of, it’s much better than using a power bank. All I’m getting at is that is we need to try different configurations for ourselves in our own system context. I don’t believe there is one single best path and we all have a finite set of options we have the time and enthusiasm to try. I actually think there might be a single best path, when talking about digital domain, since this is only about reducing noise towards the DAC. If we mange to figure out one path that output extremely clean digital signal, that is off-grid, then i believe most people can benefit from that. Sure, there might be some variations still but it is clearly a very efficient way for all people, i would say. (for a relative low cost) |
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Post by Clive on Jul 23, 2024 18:09:40 GMT
It seems like the issue is jitter in the conversion but the same can be said for switches and WiFi extenders. Hopefully your V4 extender is as good or better than Eric’s V3, maybe he’s commented on this. The Ian Canada battery he suggests should be good but so too can be the Supercap ps used by at least one person I know of, it’s much better than using a power bank. All I’m getting at is that is we need to try different configurations for ourselves in our own system context. I don’t believe there is one single best path and we all have a finite set of options we have the time and enthusiasm to try. I actually think there might be a single best path, when talking about digital domain, since this is only about reducing noise towards the DAC. If we mange to figure out one path that output extremely clean digital signal, that is of-grid, then i believe most people can benefit from that. Sure, there might be some variations still but it is clearly a very efficient way for all people, i would say. (for a relative low cost) If off-grid includes not using any form of broadband then yes, maybe there are optimal solutions at various price points but the broadband we all receive is not consistent. There’s always a better solution…. I’ve been there and thought that way but in the end I needed to stop and listen to music and not worry that I was missing out. I found my own equilibrium. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 18:10:56 GMT
I should add that all my theories are from Hans Beekhuyzens recent explanations on the subject together with two podcasts where the chief engineers from Innous and Antipodes explains these things, based on their own research. I have listened to these 4 videos/pods many times and when testing these things my self it just seem to line-up with what they are saying about the digital domain.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2024 18:52:05 GMT
I actually think there might be a single best path, when talking about digital domain, since this is only about reducing noise towards the DAC. There is a very good real-world solution which attempts to do this. It's the Uptone EtherREGEN and, considering its age now, it does a great job of reducing output noise by using an internal isolation moat and very fast switching output. It even features an external clock input, which further improves performance as does a good external PSU. It isn't perfect but it doesn't cost the Earth, either. It's so good that Uptone are currently designing an even higher performance replacement, coming soon. Some people search far and wide for other solutions costing more, and seemingly ignore the EtherREGEN. |
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Post by Tobias on Jul 23, 2024 18:56:49 GMT
I actually think there might be a single best path, when talking about digital domain, since this is only about reducing noise towards the DAC. There is a very good real-world solution which attempts to do this. It's the Uptone EtherREGEN and, considering its age now, it does a great job of reducing output noise by using an internal isolation moat and very fast switching output. It even features an external clock input, which further improves performance as does a good external PSU. It isn't perfect but it doesn't cost the Earth, either. It's so good that Uptone are currently designing an even higher performance replacement, coming soon. Some people search far and wide for other solutions costing more, and seemingly ignore the EtherREGEN. I hope you will give the choke cable a good try by following Eric´s advice as much as you can. I think you might be surprised with only a choke cable connected to the suggested WiFi extender, with some better power supply.  |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2024 19:02:18 GMT
Wi-Fi extender? I have a 4G+ router sending ethernet direct to the EtherREGEN. 4G+ gives the same air-gapped isolation as Wi-Fi and a lot less local noise injection into the power lines.
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