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Post by MartinT on Aug 7, 2014 13:57:59 GMT
An understanding of theory without actually putting that theory to personal test gives bugger all enlightenment .
Agreed. So you missed this bit: "Empirical evidence (i.e. listening) is all-important."
Of course I haven't listened to all possible speaker arrangements, I doubt anyone has, but I am familiar enough with single 15" systems versus a twin 11" system, as well as many of these thin AV towers. Are you? Or are you not here for the hunting?
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Post by MikeMusic on Aug 7, 2014 14:21:03 GMT
None of this answers the real question All black kit sounds better than anything else !  |
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Post by MartinT on Aug 7, 2014 14:25:46 GMT
By the way, these are my all-time favourite speakers for bass, using two of the aforementioned 15" JBL drivers each. Fast doesn't even start to describe them.
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 7, 2014 14:27:06 GMT
Your moving the goal posts !!! I do not hold a position on driver size , I was mnerely highlight there is a strong counter view to your own .
to refresh , currently we are concerned with series wiring - I favour series wiring . You dissed it [ and thus me ]* with some nonsense about prevalence and damping factor . This is what this particular issue is about , nothing more or less .
For the record if you read the thread you will see that I have owned mission 753's and built my own multiple driver speakers as well as several two way speakers and have experimented a lot with wiring and x-over configurations .
Also selective irrelevant cutting and pasting is an trick best kept on Aos surely ?
* don't worry I don't take it personally .
Ps. This is just me , I wouldn't dream of commenting on anything I didn't own and hadn't had extensive experience of . Hearing something at a show or in a shop as far as I am concerned is irrelevant . Additionally , I wouldn't comment on things I had not directly compared . I owned a ortofon mc 30 supreme 20 years ago so I wouldn't dream of comparing it to a benz micro ace sl . I don't expect others to follow this rule , but I am suspicious of those that don't .
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Post by MartinT on Aug 7, 2014 14:43:55 GMT
I do not hold a position on driver size. You simply made (and are still making) assumptions.
Series connection for loudspeakers is well known and has drawbacks which I've loosely described. There is much information on the internet. Here's a good article:
"Connecting a pair of speakers in series will usually degrade the sound quality since the speaker in series with the first one is subject to frequency response variations from being presented with a complex load impedance as opposed to being directly coupled with the amplifier. The extent of the degradation depends upon the complexity of the speaker design, amplifier design, and listener sensitivity."
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 7, 2014 14:57:32 GMT
You make my point for me .
You quote orthodoxy and theory over experience . You may be content with that , but I would much rather find out for myself and read the words of others who have personally tried it . You will be telling me next market economies and accumulation of surplus value in the form of private capital is the best means of organising societies.
And your quote makes no actual sense , it is an opinion that begs more questions than it answers . How is a parallel wired speaker in a say a four way unit that goes through a crossover directly coupled to the amplifier ?
And what is a complex speaker design , amplifier design ?
Its is incomprehensible and meaningless , if I wrote submissions to the court like that I would sack myself .
here is my own quote from the person who advised me to just try series wiring - 
Again ignorance rules as they haven't a clue what series and parallel wiring mean in reality, how they effect how the cone(s) damp(s), how the amp / speaker interface reacts to the load being driven either primarily by current or voltage. All they think about is DC impedance i.e. resistance. It is meaningless as music is wide band AC.
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 7, 2014 15:24:24 GMT
The simple fact is this is complex stuff it is absolutely necessary to combine theory with practice and for most this is a hobby . So unless you have spent decades combining theory with practice , it is best to restrict comments to your own experience and not look for absolutes or dogma's .
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Post by Firebottle on Aug 7, 2014 15:28:51 GMT
Daniel you have just shot yourself in the foot.
Your quote 'It is meaningless as music is wide band AC' confirms that any loudspeaker load must be looked at over the usual wide band that we can hear. When have you ever seen or measured a loudspeaker impedance that is flat, i.e. constant, over this band?
With series wiring it will always have an effect on the loudspeaker pair and amplifier performance, if only to reduce the output power.
Cheers, Alan
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 7, 2014 15:39:31 GMT
Sorry but that doesn't mean anything .
If you think it does then you should adopt the granny test . If you cant explain what you mean to your granny then you don't understand if sufficiently .
what is output power ? Is that like what phil the power tailor as got ? How does a reduction in output power effect sound quality ? cant I just turn up the volume ?
you see it sounds like more cut and paste theory to me .
Additionally , assuming what you think you are saying is correct , I fail to see how it undermines what RD said ? I am unable to follow your logic . |
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Post by yomanze on Aug 7, 2014 15:52:05 GMT
Your moving the goal posts !!! I do not hold a position on driver size , I was mnerely highlight there is a strong counter view to your own .
Pretty sure Martin's comments on driver size were directed at me, not you... |
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Post by Firebottle on Aug 7, 2014 15:59:12 GMT
Daniel you are an absolute dick. There I've said what others are thinking.
Moderation - ban me if you wish.
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Post by gazjam on Aug 7, 2014 16:19:01 GMT
Dan, arguing for the sake of arguing ( and being needlessly pedantic and uhm, getting it wrong sometimes) is just a pain in the arse for folk reading it. You make a good points relevant to whats being discussed - give us more of that! Alan knows his onions like a lot of other folk on the forums here, we all do in our own area? Knowing what he does I reckon he knows exactly what hes talking about. He offered what he did cos he wanted to be helpful. So c'mon, take the stick out your arse fella and join in. |
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Post by yomanze on Aug 7, 2014 16:19:28 GMT
As to what others are thinking am not liking the confrontational posts / shit stirring and relaying back to another forum in the process either.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 7, 2014 16:35:35 GMT
DQ, your comments are really sounding like ignorance now. I would reel it in a little if I were you. It's one thing to debate theory and I enjoy that very much, but you don't get it, so don't keep digging your hole deeper.
I have heard single drivers, series connected multi-driver AV speakers, parallel connected twin drivers, big drivers, PA line speakers. They all have their characteristics. Some of the theory we have been talking about, like surface area and displacement, is physics and you can't argue with it. I no longer even know nor care what point you're trying to make.
I agree with Gaz, you do make some good points, so please go back to doing that.
Thanks.
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Post by Stratmangler on Aug 7, 2014 16:36:00 GMT
<abbr> </abbr>
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Post by gazjam on Aug 7, 2014 16:38:33 GMT
Being pedantic here Gaz, but the L-Pad does not adjust the crossover frequency - the crossover frequency is fixed. The L-Pad adjusts the volume of the tweeter relative to the mid/bass drivers. Ah, didn't know that Chris...need to read up a bit more on my own speakers! Beware laymen bearing "facts".... |
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Post by gazjam on Aug 7, 2014 16:42:43 GMT
Your HTML's pooped itself Chris.... |
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Post by Stratmangler on Aug 7, 2014 16:42:52 GMT
I like the sound of that. They are the same as my fondly remembered diy speakers. Are they wired in series or parallel? Think they are wired in parallel mate, the thinking being as well as quartering distortion, the load impedance would be lowered with the extra drivers and efficiency would go up. 94db at 8 Ohms. Also, they have a ribbon tweeter with an L-Pad to adjust the crossover frequency. Subtle but great for "dialing in" the speakers to the room. Clever stuff. Oh, and they do Portishead like nothing else Ive heard! Being pedantic Gaz. The crossover frequency is fixed. The L-Pad changes the volume of the tweeter section relative to the mid/bass drivers. |
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Post by Stratmangler on Aug 7, 2014 16:44:35 GMT
Your HTML's pooped itself Chris.... Hence my second post picking up on the L-Pad ..... Where's that "Doh" emoticon when you need it? ....... |
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Post by MikeMusic on Aug 7, 2014 17:01:29 GMT
By the way, these are my all-time favourite speakers for bass, using two of the aforementioned 15" JBL drivers each. Fast doesn't even start to describe them.
No idea what they sound like but I'd really love to hear them just from the looks And they are only partially black ! |
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