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Post by danielquinn on Sept 9, 2014 9:29:07 GMT
Borrowing from Mr Cawley's signature and not wishing to go over the same old faction fighting to be found elsewhere , I though I would borrow from the Frankfurt School of Critique and deal with an issue upon its own terms .
Measurements at it simplest is assigning a value to a variable phenomena . Thus if i say I am 6 inches tall you will know that I am lying . Or if it is -15 degrees centigrade outside you will know it will be cold . But you cant really infer anything else from the measurement other than small , tall , hot or cold .
Hifi seems to make great claims for its measurements .
Some measurements allow you to infer more - heart rate , blood pressure can tell you if you are well or poorly , but this is based on variance from the norm and they cant ever tell you what is in fact wrong with you . Qualitative investigations are required .
So as a purchaser and listener , what do measurements in HIFI actually tell you and in what circumstances do they tell you what you claim they tell you .
My current working hypothesis is that they tell you bugger all of any use beyond the simple fact -e,g : 50 watt amplifier..
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 9, 2014 9:33:37 GMT
I agree, measurements tell you bugger all.
Even the 50 watt amplifier - that doesn't give you much of a clue as to its ability to drive real world speakers.
I've had a pair of 100wpc monoblock amps that had less driving power than a 10wpc amp, or even a 6wpc amp.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 9, 2014 14:17:52 GMT
Turning it around, if you're asking whether what we measure corresponds with what we hear, no generally it doesn't. There's a long way to go before we have a full understanding of how to measure the 'goodness' of a component in terms of sound quality.
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Post by danielquinn on Sept 9, 2014 14:25:02 GMT
No I am looking for a much more simpler advocacy han that , I am looking for the usefulness of any measurement in hifi and how it is useful and what circumstances it is useful . I ask more from a position of confusion that desire for conflict .
On a discussion on dacs on a well known forum whose typeface is not the colour of its name a well known objectivist discussing hifi critics review of dac said and i paraphrase " at least its got measurements , i like that and i find it useful "
I am left baffled .
the only useful measurement for me is the one that tells me it runs on 24o volts ac .
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Post by dvh on Sept 9, 2014 17:58:47 GMT
No I am looking for a much more simpler advocacy han that , I am looking for the usefulness of any measurement in hifi and how it is useful and what circumstances it is useful . I ask more from a position of confusion that desire for conflict . On a discussion on dacs on a well known forum whose typeface is not the colour of its name a well known objectivist discussing hifi critics review of dac said and i paraphrase " at least its got measurements , i like that and i find it useful " I am left baffled . the only useful measurement for me is the one that tells me it runs on 24o volts ac . Measurements are also useful to judge whether the equipment in question will fit on the shelf and if it'll be a two-man lift to get it on there. |
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Post by Chris on Sept 9, 2014 17:59:52 GMT
Width and depth of an amp/CD player/DVD is handy,then I know if it'll fit on a stand. Helps with the length of power cord needed as well.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 18:34:19 GMT
Measurements tell me that people can't necessarily hear if it's any better.
I don't care what a frequency response chart looks like, because I don't know how to relate that to the sound I like to hear from my system.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 9, 2014 19:53:00 GMT
Measurements give us indications, no more. I know that a single-ended triode amp may work well with a Lowther speaker because I understand power versus efficiency. That same amp is unlikely to be satisfactory with a Wilson Alexandria. There is little to tell me how it will sound, though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 20:03:13 GMT
But all watts are not equal?
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Post by lurcher on Sept 9, 2014 20:21:42 GMT
But all watts are not equal? Well, they are in reality, what does differ is how a amp behaves with music peaks, and how it responds to clipping, or even if it does clip in the expected sense. |
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Post by MartinT on Sept 9, 2014 20:25:35 GMT
But all watts are not equal? Yes they are. Perception of power is a different thing. |
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Post by AlanS on Sept 9, 2014 20:38:59 GMT
The frequency response curve, or lack of curve, with my headphones confirms what I hear is beautifully free from peaky sound
It is intereting those who dismiss measurements are usually those least able to understand them .
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Post by MartinT on Sept 9, 2014 20:57:45 GMT
It is intereting those who dismiss measurements are usually those least able to understand them . Basic human behaviour, but yes I agree. |
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Post by DaveC on Sept 9, 2014 22:10:20 GMT
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Post by Chris on Sept 10, 2014 4:48:56 GMT
The frequency response curve, or lack of curve, with my headphones confirms what I hear is beautifully free from peaky sound It is intereting those who dismiss measurements are usually those least able to understand them . Bit insulting that last bit.  I dare say I COULD understand measurements if they were of any interest to me. I'd prefer just to listen to something and decide that way though. Im calm again now. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 5:12:42 GMT
A frequency response chart only tells you half a picture.
It does not tell you if the bass will be fast and punchy, or will be bloated and slow. It just tells you that the piece of equipment can achieve that frequency, and at what level.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 10, 2014 5:39:34 GMT
I dare say I COULD understand measurements if they were of any interest to me. I'd prefer just to listen to something and decide that way though. I don't think it's aimed at you, Chris. We all seem to agree that measurements give only a guide to sound, not the full picture. Rather like the grand unifying theory, we have lots of different clever ways to create plots such as waterfall graphs, but we don't have a unifying picture of measurements which equate to what we hear. However, it's those who DISMISS measurements completely who leave themselves open to less than a full understanding of what's going on. |
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Post by Chris on Sept 10, 2014 5:45:57 GMT
I didn't think it was aimed at me personally and I didn't take it that way at all! I'm not serious enough for all that!! TBH I've never really bothered about measurements as the figures can be applied so differently. A good case is those old ads that used to say things like 2x50 watts rms music POWER.
After I found out stuff like that was all misleading rot I kind of gave up.
I know they do have their place and I'm starting to understand them more but I still like to just use my ears!
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Post by MartinT on Sept 10, 2014 5:52:28 GMT
I know they do have their place and I'm starting to understand them more but I still like to just use my ears! That's probably the best approach. |
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Post by Chris on Sept 10, 2014 6:22:32 GMT
Suppose it depends on the measurements of yer ears!!  Or yer ears measurements..or what yer ears measure...Damn,I'm all confused now...  Anyway,at my last medical the doc told me I have very good hearing. |
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I dare say I COULD understand measurements if they were of any interest to me. I'd prefer just to listen to something and decide that way though.
