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Post by danielquinn on Sept 11, 2014 9:03:57 GMT
Most the measurements so far which allege utility are not actually specifications , perhaps my thesis needs revising .
Marco makes a good point re turntables , but on consideration i don’t think it stacks up cause all turntable measurements do is put on number on your preferred settings after the fact . VTA , BIAS , AZIMUTH , TRACKING WEIGHT are all best set by ear . So whilst measurement can help you , they don’t actually tell you anything except put a figure on your preference .
For example , tracking weight , your scales will tell you what you have set it at , they won’t tell you which is best for you . Similar setting bias and most people do not place any measurement on vta or azimuth .
As for alignment protractors they are not a measurement per se , just a template of pre set measurements which establish if your cartridge is aligned properly to the your chosen geometry .
So I will accept that setting up turntables with measurement devises is easier , BUT the actual measurements don’t tell you anything other than the bare fact , ie I track my benz at 1.78. grams .
Nobody would set a turntable based upon measurements given to them .
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Post by dvh on Sept 11, 2014 9:26:27 GMT
Nobody would set a turntable based upon measurements given to them . I would. Measurements are useful or useless depending on whether you intend to do much fiddling about with the component in question. If all you're going to do is to plug and play (my approach) then assuming basic compatibility, there's nothing to worry about. On the other hand, if you're going to start changing components, then you're going to need to know if component A measures the same as component B, and/or whether any difference in measurements is going to be problematic in terms of safety/reliability. |
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Post by danielquinn on Sept 11, 2014 9:29:09 GMT
So you would set , tracking weight , bias and vta based on measurements given to you ?
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Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2014 9:40:34 GMT
Going back to the amplifier example, all watts are equal of course but power supplies are not. I don't understand the subject nearly well enough to expound upon the theory however I do know that a 50wpc amp with a sturdy PS will almost always outperform one with equally quoted power output specs but which contains a 'ho-hum' PS. The old NAD 3020 is an excellent example of this, rated conservatively at 20wpc it could comfortably best many of its more powerful rivals in current delivery due to its well designed and 'meaty' power supply. Measurements are helpful to the end user in most cases but not the 'be all and end all' in every case.
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Post by AlanS on Sept 11, 2014 10:09:29 GMT
I find a simple DB meter very useful Still surprised when my ears say quiet and the meter says not - and vice versa Does your meter measure A weighted or flat response. If both which do you use when you hear nothing but the meter says something measured. Some form of spectrum analysis will give a hint why the difference. |
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Post by dvh on Sept 11, 2014 10:59:20 GMT
So you would set , tracking weight , bias and vta based on measurements given to you ? Yeah, why wouldn't I? Presumably the manufacturers know what they're doing. I have test record and would make sure all was OK; so far it always has been. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Sept 11, 2014 12:13:09 GMT
I find a simple DB meter very useful Still surprised when my ears say quiet and the meter says not - and vice versa Does your meter measure A weighted or flat response. If both which do you use when you hear nothing but the meter says something measured. Some form of spectrum analysis will give a hint why the difference. Both I think Being efficient (or lazy) I take what I get when I turn on  I assume it's the dynamic range, perhaps due to the production |
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2014 12:46:42 GMT
I think measurements matter more to designers
Lets take a speaker getting drivers that match certain parameters help's designing crossovers fit certain criteria
But as a purchaser I am interested in how it sounds in my system and room and this will vary 1
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Post by MikeMusic on Sept 11, 2014 14:07:46 GMT
Measurements are a good place to start for design and prototype manufacture
After that it has to be earoles
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 19:42:31 GMT
I have an old pair of Monitor Audio speaker cables DQ can use to undertake an empirical test of his hypothisis.
I have no measurements for them (but that apparently doesn't matter) except that they are about 3m log and are constructed of a number of plaited wires laid out in a flat section.
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Post by danielquinn on Sept 12, 2014 5:54:11 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Sept 12, 2014 5:56:21 GMT
The Radio Shack digital meter defaults to C weighted (equal weight across the audible frequency spectrum), which is the best general purpose weighting to use.
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Post by MikeMusic on Sept 12, 2014 7:22:00 GMT
Oh good.
I was wondering if I should be being more scientific.
At least I use the same settings for all.
I must note some high and low examples to play next visit
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 9:29:57 GMT
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Sept 12, 2014 10:17:35 GMT
Marco makes a good point re turntables , but on consideration i don’t think it stacks up cause all turntable measurements do is put on number on your preferred settings after the fact. VTA , BIAS , AZIMUTH , TRACKING WEIGHT are all best set by ear. So whilst measurement can help you , they don’t actually tell you anything except put a figure on your preference. For example , tracking weight , your scales will tell you what you have set it at , they won’t tell you which is best for you . Similar setting bias and most people do not place any measurement on vta or azimuth . As for alignment protractors they are not a measurement per se , just a template of pre set measurements which establish if your cartridge is aligned properly to the your chosen geometry . So I will accept that setting up turntables with measurement devises is easier , BUT the actual measurements don’t tell you anything other than the bare fact , ie I track my benz at 1.78. grams . Nobody would set a turntable based upon measurements given to them . [See emboldened text]. Yes, but that said, some measurements *are* useful to the average audio enthusiast, which is something you had disputed before. A stylus pressure gauge, for example, will get you ‘in the right zone’, VTF-wise, before fine-tuning is later carried out by ear. If your tonearm doesn’t have a numbered dial on its counterweight balance, with which to set VTF, then a stylus pressure gauge is a necessity, lest one simply ‘guesses’ what the tracking force is and then listens to results, which would be rather 'hit and miss'. Similarly, whilst VTA can be adjusted by eye, and sonically, later fine-tuned by ear, a small bubble level, placed on top of a tonearm’s headshell, will confirm that the arm is level and also that azimuth is spot on, both of which are essential in order for the partnering cartridge to perform optimally. The latter also applies to a lignment protractors.
Relying solely on one’s ears (or eyes), in this instance, is simply not enough. Therefore, if you wish to extract maximum sonic performance from your T/T, carrying out the above measurements is pretty much mandatory, which of course in turn makes them ‘useful’.
Therefore, to answer your question: “What Do Measurements in HiFi Tell You ?”
In terms of what I’ve outlined above, they act as a reasonable guide from which decisions can later be finalised through the process of listening.
Marco.
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Post by yomanze on Sept 12, 2014 10:20:46 GMT
I think measurements matter more to designers Lets take a speaker getting drivers that match certain parameters help's designing crossovers fit certain criteria But as a purchaser I am interested in how it sounds in my system and room and this will vary 1 Agreed, for example, from the Royd Sorcerer brochure it's very clear what measurements are telling us: "Computer analysis of the decay spectrum of 50 microsecond pulses at 50 volts has been used in the development of this loudspeaker to locate and eliminate resonant modes from the bass unit, tweeter and cabinet. The transient response of The Sorcerer resulting from the virtual elimination of resonant modes and overhang gives this speaker a clarity and definition comparable with the very latest recording techniques." |
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Post by yomanze on Sept 12, 2014 10:26:27 GMT
Also, measurements are very important for system matching e.g. I would not hook my Audiosector DAC with a passive output stage & 2.7 kOhm output impedance to a 20 kOhm passive preamp, my Theta DAC's 4.5V output voltage isn't the best match for my amps that only need 0.5V to reach full power, I wouldn't plug my amp into a pair of 1 Ohm Apogee Scintillas etc...
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Sept 12, 2014 11:40:18 GMT
Also, measurements are very important for system matching e.g. I would not hook my Audiosector DAC with a passive output stage & 2.7 kOhm output impedance to a 20 kOhm passive preamp, my Theta DAC's 4.5V output voltage isn't the best match for my amps that only need 0.5V to reach full power, I wouldn't plug my amp into a pair of 1 Ohm Apogee Scintillas etc… Indeed, although as long as there was no automatic danger of damage (i.e. something blowing up was an absolute certainty), I’d still be tempted to have a listen, simply out of curiosity!  In my experience, measurements should rarely be taken as ‘Gospel’: they are mostly just a guideline. Marco. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 30, 2022 21:25:42 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Jul 30, 2022 22:31:22 GMT
I would say this is the key issue that we all face in being a member of a hi-fi forum and trying to impart what we hear to others, or understanding what they are saying to us...
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