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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 21:13:30 GMT
Well this balanced arrangement is working well. They reject noise being added to the connection but require either a transformer or another amplifier stage (another potential source of noise and distortion)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 0:12:48 GMT
I've just designed a fully balanced hybrid phono stage with zero feedback actually.... not that there would be any demand for that!
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Post by pinkie on Jul 13, 2015 5:37:41 GMT
I gather it is fairly simple to modify the pip phono input to balanced. (1 capacitor I think). The issue is the input to the line stage. I have 4 scribbled schematics of alternatives, all of which fall over at the volume pot. I think if we hadn't run out of time the punch line was going to be an amplifier on the front.
And although I use it in active mode on phono since it needs the extra gain for my dynavector, legend has it passive is preferable for the line stage, and the bits of scribble are supposed to explain why that is trickier.
Again - with short cable runs and Mains not running parallel to signal (when you get your new house, are you going to set your hi-fi up properly?) - balanced shouldn't be necessary. Noise on the interconnect should be vanishingly low. The obvious noise on the cable in the video was a scenario that was artificial (over 2m of signal cable run right next to mains cable.)
But even with the shield grounded, noise wasn't zero. It was "sufficiently attenuated". However, with the best hi-fi, what should be the threshold for "sufficiently attenuated" and what can a "properly set up" unbalanced connection achieve? I'm hoping we will (one day) do some tests.
Ironically, I got in the habit of locating the quad a decent distance from the low level signals to reduce noise from the transformer. The benchmark is quiet enough and cool enough to have the pip sit on top. And has balanced connections that would let me site it in the room next door.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 13, 2015 5:46:26 GMT
And jez, regarding your design, I don't know, but it must be frustrating. I don't really know what is reference for phono stages today, but clearly there is some market when they are good enough. I'll talk to Arthur, who is always muttering that he "needs" a funk phono stage. Commercially that's bollocks. He needs one like a hole in the head. But I know he shares my views about valves (and I know if he could get them mended he'd use one of his pip 2s at shows).
But there is a market for "top" phono stages, if they can perform, and if you sort the rest of the marketing mix (which mostly means distribution channels)
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2015 5:58:48 GMT
Listen to two commercial examples of good design: a Gram Amp 2SE at around £300 and an Aurorasound VIDA at around £2800. Each sounds great at its price point, is well made and reliable. If you can engineer and 'productionise' a phono stage at a substantially lower price for similar sound quality, and get your routes to market sorted out, then go for it. Otherwise, you're in for a world of pain and it simply won't be worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 11:59:27 GMT
And jez, regarding your design, I don't know, but it must be frustrating. I don't really know what is reference for phono stages today, but clearly there is some market when they are good enough. I'll talk to Arthur, who is always muttering that he "needs" a funk phono stage. Commercially that's bollocks. He needs one like a hole in the head. But I know he shares my views about valves (and I know if he could get them mended he'd use one of his pip 2s at shows). But there is a market for "top" phono stages, if they can perform, and if you sort the rest of the marketing mix (which mostly means distribution channels) It was just the talk of balanced and the fact that I'd just designed a balanced phono that got me to mention it.... it was rhetorical really! So what's the issue about the PIp 2's when it comes to mending them? Maybe I could assist....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 12:02:14 GMT
I gather it is fairly simple to modify the pip phono input to balanced. (1 capacitor I think). The issue is the input to the line stage. I have 4 scribbled schematics of alternatives, all of which fall over at the volume pot. I think if we hadn't run out of time the punch line was going to be an amplifier on the front. And although I use it in active mode on phono since it needs the extra gain for my dynavector, legend has it passive is preferable for the line stage, and the bits of scribble are supposed to explain why that is trickier. Again - with short cable runs and Mains not running parallel to signal (when you get your new house, are you going to set your hi-fi up properly?) - balanced shouldn't be necessary. Noise on the interconnect should be vanishingly low. The obvious noise on the cable in the video was a scenario that was artificial (over 2m of signal cable run right next to mains cable.) But even with the shield grounded, noise wasn't zero. It was "sufficiently attenuated". However, with the best hi-fi, what should be the threshold for "sufficiently attenuated" and what can a "properly set up" unbalanced connection achieve? I'm hoping we will (one day) do some tests. Ironically, I got in the habit of locating the quad a decent distance from the low level signals to reduce noise from the transformer. The benchmark is quiet enough and cool enough to have the pip sit on top. And has balanced connections that would let me site it in the room next door. You do seem to be having frustrating issues with mains hum there! I can't say it's something that's ever caused me any trouble. Obviously there would sometimes be a change to the system which would cause an earth loop but that would take minutes to cure usually...
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Post by dvh on Jul 13, 2015 12:06:39 GMT
I gather it is fairly simple to modify the pip phono input to balanced. (1 capacitor I think). The issue is the input to the line stage. I have 4 scribbled schematics of alternatives, all of which fall over at the volume pot. I think if we hadn't run out of time the punch line was going to be an amplifier on the front. And although I use it in active mode on phono since it needs the extra gain for my dynavector, legend has it passive is preferable for the line stage, and the bits of scribble are supposed to explain why that is trickier. Again - with short cable runs and Mains not running parallel to signal (when you get your new house, are you going to set your hi-fi up properly?) - balanced shouldn't be necessary. Noise on the interconnect should be vanishingly low. The obvious noise on the cable in the video was a scenario that was artificial (over 2m of signal cable run right next to mains cable.) But even with the shield grounded, noise wasn't zero. It was "sufficiently attenuated". However, with the best hi-fi, what should be the threshold for "sufficiently attenuated" and what can a "properly set up" unbalanced connection achieve? I'm hoping we will (one day) do some tests. Ironically, I got in the habit of locating the quad a decent distance from the low level signals to reduce noise from the transformer. The benchmark is quiet enough and cool enough to have the pip sit on top. And has balanced connections that would let me site it in the room next door. You do seem to be having frustrating issues with mains hum there! I can't say it's something that's ever caused me any trouble. Obviously there would sometimes be a change to the system which would cause an earth loop but that would take minutes to cure usually... Well, quite. With my amp and CDP connected via unbalanced cables, there's zero noise until I play music, even with my ear right up to the speaker. I had a phono stage that hummed like a bastard, but a swap around of cables cured that.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jul 13, 2015 12:26:45 GMT
I've just designed a fully balanced hybrid phono stage with zero feedback actually.... not that there would be any demand for that! Sounds interesting to me..
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Post by pinkie on Jul 13, 2015 12:33:48 GMT
So what's the issue about the PIp 2's when it comes to mending them? Maybe I could assist.... I'll talk to AK. This week or next. At least 4 engineers he rated capable have screwed up or given up. Patchy schematics (none until I gave him mine about a year ago) and a transconductance design which means a voltage at the input and the output, but nowhere in the middle make diagnostics difficult. A less than service-friendly construction doesn't help.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 13, 2015 12:54:25 GMT
You do seem to be having frustrating issues with mains hum there! I can't say it's something that's ever caused me any trouble. Obviously there would sometimes be a change to the system which would cause an earth loop but that would take minutes to cure usually... Yup - its been the bane of my life. The recent one has been mainly the AV. Like all these "fault diagnosis" issues, when you know the answer, or more of it - the story never tells well because the mystery is no longer there (The real bastard was the combi-boiler from hell - I still have a garlic string in the front of the case) The "problem" has made me speculate about "non-problems" - ie apparantly noise below the threshold of audibility. The problem was the AV input. The solution basically a chassis ground to chassis ground. Lots of stages along the way where I thought I had a ground but didn't. Bits that have been part of the "fuss" are The chassis ground nearly silences the hum - I would have said silenced it, but I've got fussier. However, there were degrees of ground silencing - heavier gauge wire got quieter and quieter. A slightly loosened ground connection would give a slight noise. Its still not silent - but I'm not bothered about that particular input because it is for the AV watching Liverpool on Sky Sports, or Game of Thrones. If it was my 2 channel, I would still be on a mission. In previous ground loop situations, with shorter cable runs, it has just been a question of connect up the right 2 points and it "goes silent". But did it go silent - or just very very very heavily attenuated? Most papers I've read on ground loops are happy if they can drop hum 40db - 50db when they are fussy. Although silent in normal use - turning on a light which is on a dimmer switch, introduced a low level buzz again. I think that means a very very loud noise nuisance took the "attenuated noise" back above the threshold of acceptability. The solution was to turn off the light, which we didn't want anyway - but it indicates how the chassis ground is not a complete perfect solution - although apparantly "silent" (No noise breakthrough with the light dimmer on the other 2 inputs mind) The chassis grounding shenanigans, included an "aha" when I put a ground wire from the power amp direct to the sleeve of the satelite cables on the back of the sky box, itself not grounded to the mains, but connected to the AV amp which is the apparant source of the problem. It's too bloody inaccessible for me to have played with now it is "silent" but I think the satelite cables are a big part of the ground loop. Odd thing is, I can't see anywhere that they are grounded, unless it is that they are a very long screen connection to the other sat receivers on the other side of the house, which are themselves grounded, via the TV's they are connected to. Oh - and the connection from AV amp to Pip is 5m of unbalanced cable, much of which runs almost alongside mains for too much of the way. Just pulling it out in front of the TV and across the middle of the carpet would probably have a big effect. Anyway, I expect that has bored you rigid - but its gotten me interested in noise, and silence that isn't silent. Especially in the context of a power amp that thinks there is some relevance in SNR's of >90db (as in 132db) It's made me realise how much, more than anything else, all I really want is equipment that "just works". Every time. And kinda - at the moment - it does.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 13:19:23 GMT
So what's the issue about the PIp 2's when it comes to mending them? Maybe I could assist.... I'll talk to AK. This week or next. At least 4 engineers he rated capable have screwed up or given up. Patchy schematics (none until I gave him mine about a year ago) and a transconductance design which means a voltage at the input and the output, but nowhere in the middle make diagnostics difficult. A less than service-friendly construction doesn't help. Ah I see it's been looked at by other people... that's the worst thing in the world when repairing something and as 4 have previously looked at it I'll probably give it a miss. Nothing worse than having to guess whether some parts like it is due to someone else having messed it up/fitted the wrong part/fitted a transistor with the wrong pin out etc. I've been known to turn away customers who have turned up with an amp partly disassembled saying "I've had a quick look at it/me pal who's a sparky had a quick look at it"..... I've no fear of the design and would almost guarantee success but this puts me off!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 20:02:59 GMT
My thoughts along the burn in scenario are: Speakers move when playing, so they 'limber up'. Wire does not actually move does it? So how can wire 'burn in'?
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Post by pinkie on Jul 15, 2015 13:50:38 GMT
My thoughts along the burn in scenario are: Speakers move when playing, so they 'limber up'. Wire does not actually move does it? So how can wire 'burn in'? I think you are right. I don't believe cable can or does burn in. Even allowing for the fact that cable (with screens and shields and sleeves) is more complicated electrically than wire, there is no accepted conventional scientific explanation for how it could burn in. But many people using cables claim they "improve after a while". In the absence of any better explanation, that might be because the listener gets used to them. Towards the end of August, Wonky is going to have a pop at convincing me otherwise with some cooked and raw versions of his home-brew specials - but I don't fancy his chances
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 20:07:51 GMT
You didn't fancy my chances with speaker cable either, and we know how that one went.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 16, 2015 7:28:29 GMT
You didn't fancy my chances with speaker cable either, and we know how that one went. Yes, yes ... but whilst I hadn't heard something as dramatic as that since I last used a single strand of thin copper to try to wire up speakers, I was happy with the idea speaker cables can make a difference - just not something to endlessly obsess about. I have a set of flat chords and the Talk3 cables I am currently using. There was no need to bend space/time and allow for alien visitations for that As my dad (who had a silly sense of humour) used to say, regarding wildlife recognition and the difference between a weasle and a stoat. "A weasel, thats weasely recognised, but a stoat, thats stoataly different" Burn in - that's stoataly different!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 10:09:12 GMT
I actually agree with you. I do not think I will be able to tell the difference between a newly constructed lead, and one of my older ones.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 16, 2015 10:29:42 GMT
I actually agree with you. I do not think I will be able to tell the difference between a newly constructed lead, and one of my older ones. No problem - as long as the bar's open
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Post by BilliumB on Jul 16, 2015 15:40:01 GMT
You didn't fancy my chances with speaker cable either, and we know how that one went. What happened with the speaker cables?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 15:47:14 GMT
Pinkie heard how nasty QED SA could be in a system.
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