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Post by pinkie on Jul 9, 2015 9:02:11 GMT
I couldnt really see another thread to drop this into, so - here we are Wonky - what have you done?  There is a certain irony that I have been waiting for a preamp with RCA's before "messing about" with interconnects, only to get a preamp with RCA's and a power amp with XLR balanced inputs!!!!! "Bother" said Winnie the Pooh. I have been listening on the Benchmark with its XLR to RCA short leads extended with barrel connectors to the 2 cheap RCA lead sets which reached far enough. Not ideal. Like a prize Tit I ordered 6 RCA plugs and 1 XLR plug with my cable - real blond moment. So the dedicated balanced to RCA set will have to wait for the weekend. That will make it a fair fight. For now, a very quick preliminary dabble using the Quad 405-2. They're OK. Following Kevins recommendation that plugs don't really matter, and Klotz MC5000 represented excellent value for money, if it maybe wasn't the absolute best he had auditioned, I have made up this 2m set of Klotz with REAN plugs. The room is the same size, and I wouldn't sell the cartridge to get the cables, but it is going to be interesting to choose a nice finishing touch. I am also interested to try to work out "why" they sound different, and (tougher this) what is "better". This set have the shield deliberately left outside the plugs. This gives me the option of grounding the shields using the croc clips at either end of the cable, or both ends of the cable, either to a separate chassis ground, or to the signal ground on the sleeve of the RCA's - although that will necessitate removing the tired sticky insulating tape I used to avoid shorting a ground (I blame the drink). Horrible sticky mess from the tired insulating tape was mistake number 2, and the croc clips arent big enough to bite the rca barrels - but clean up will need to wait for the weekend. Preliminary, very tentative impression is that grounding to chassis ground is preferable (both my modified quad and pip2 have careful star grounding, with the rca sockets insulated from the chassis, so there is a theoretical benefit). Grounding at both ends carries no ground loop penalty since the signal return is grounded at both ends anyway, but grounding one end only seems fine. I'm sure grounding at both ends is supposed to have some magnetic shielding benefits, but I'm buggered if I can remember what or how. The disadvantage, and reason for single ended grounding is usually ground loop avoidance, and as discussed that is irrelevant here. And of course I could not ground the shield at all and float it. And I could wear a balaclava to audition I suppose too, if I was daft enough. An ungrounded shield on a cable is like a cardboard shield in a joust. Enough for now - back to sulking about the budget  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 21:09:45 GMT
For reasons I can't explain, they sound better after a few hours use.
I think that it's the head that changes, and not the cable.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 10, 2015 6:52:46 GMT
You explained it perfectly Wonky. It's your head. If you want to offer anything else for consideration make up a new unused set and leave it unused till I get there. See if you can tell the new from the "burned in" with me doing the switches. Everything "burns in" or "plays in". It's because of how we listen. When you are comparing product you strain to listen for a difference to latch on to. So you strain to pick something up, and maybe decide which is best - perhaps focussing on just one thing. But once you have decided you sit back and listen properly and enjoy. The most dramatic example recently for me was that arm tube of yours. To start with no difference, and then more and more obvious (it got better and better). It didn't burn in! Those speakers of yours might well genuinely run-in, although you can't be sure whether its speaker run-in or listener acclimatisation, and frankly who cares. As long as they run in and not out just sit back and enjoy.  I think the shielding arrangements on the cable are a major element - perhaps more obvious because I have longer cable runs (2m and 5m). But busy with house legal work, selling a caravan and rescuing George from a rain forest this weekend. |
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Post by John on Jul 10, 2015 7:07:52 GMT
Burn in Does it exist?
In interconnect cables my experience has been no but others might have a different experience.
With new equipment: some yes and some no. I do not understand the reasons for this. For example if you put up a new Caiman against a used Caiman the used Caiman will sound better so suggests more than your hearing adapting to the sound.
Speaker drivers have a big burn in period my Open baffles took a long time to fully sound at their best. The first 20 mins they sounded awful when I first used them, we all know drivers take time to burn in
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Post by pinkie on Jul 10, 2015 8:07:48 GMT
"We all know drivers take time to burn in" Well - sort of. There is a thread by "Cloth Ears" on another forum based on information from someone at an unnamed speaker manufacturer that modern drive units don't run in. And my speaker designer contacts would say the same pretty much But some do - and Wonky's new ones might well. As I noted, normally, its hard to be sure whether the driver has changed or you have got used to it, or some combination of the 2. Unlike your new and used Caiman example, you don't often get a chance to compare "fresh" with "run in" But to agree the point, for a change, I recently had a pair of Lowther Fidelios which I installed a pair of 200 hour Lowther drivers in, and one had failed and had to be replaced with a new one under the Lowther repair exchange scheme. So I had a new one and a 200 hour one, and being so sensitive, I was using a NAD 3020 to drive them, which has a balance control and mono button!!! So I could compare the same signal at the same time through old and new drivers. There was a very marked difference for about 10 hours, and I could still just about tell a difference at 50 hours (but lost interest comparing after that) But in most situations it is hard to distinguish genuine "burn in" from "familiarisation", and as I said to Wonky, as long as they are burning in and not burning out, who cares?  |
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Post by John on Jul 10, 2015 11:40:30 GMT
I use 15" drivers and the manufacture says they take around a year to fully reach their potential but not sure you could call them modern drivers
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Post by gazjam on Jul 10, 2015 16:14:43 GMT
The Mark Audio drivers on my Eddingdale speakers didn't come (truly) on song for a long time. Anecdotal second hand borrowed comments aside, there's no disputing actual experience, especially when it's backed up by others. Not impossible to postulate that a mechanical system like a drive unit will change over time? No axe to grind (or care to argue) just my £0.02 worth. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 10, 2015 18:03:39 GMT
Yes. Drive units can bed in. But most modern drive units are made of new materials to such close tolerances they are all "reference matched" and take a nanosecond to bed in. When we made the ventricals Arthur and Andrew sat for hours testing and pairing bass drivers (the tweeters were not a problem). Modern drive units are completely different
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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 11:05:44 GMT
"Blurry ell" as Gordon would say. That XLR set were a git to make up. I appreciate soldering is not my No1 skill. Nor my No2 skill. In fact, if you started counting at a brisk pace you would still be counting tomorrow before we got there. Solder with some bloody lead in it might help I presume professional cable manufacturers have some sort of appropriate jig made up. Not helped by all 3 XLR connectors (the one I was copying, and the 2 I was using) ALL being different. And that bloody fat cable. I recall, a friends mum, tiny frail lady from Barra, with a lovely highland accent, saying to me one day I visited her son in my new Lexus - "this is no a road to be driving down in a fat car". I could hear her voice as I soldered those bloody cables. If I think they're good Wonky, I shall be looking for a thinner competitor. Anyway - now to plug in and see if they work |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 12, 2015 11:10:34 GMT
You explained it perfectly Wonky. It's your head. If you want to offer anything else for consideration make up a new unused set and leave it unused till I get there. See if you can tell the new from the "burned in" with me doing the switches. Already done to my satisfaction. Every time you assert that cable burn-in is in my head, I'm going to say otherwise. |
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Post by zippy on Jul 12, 2015 11:46:11 GMT
"Blurry ell" as Gordon would say. That XLR set were a git to make up. I appreciate soldering is not my No1 skill. Nor my No2 skill. In fact, if you started counting at a brisk pace you would still be counting tomorrow before we got there. Solder with some bloody lead in it might help For your next challenge, try soldering some 5 pin din plugs !!! |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 12, 2015 12:41:52 GMT
Lead-free solder is the spawn of Beelzebub. I've kept a nice supply of proper solder, and silver-loaded solder, to see me through my days.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 12:44:57 GMT
I dislike lead free solder.
Get some proper stuff, and it will be much easier.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 15:21:11 GMT
"Blurry ell" as Gordon would say. That XLR set were a git to make up. I appreciate soldering is not my No1 skill. Nor my No2 skill. In fact, if you started counting at a brisk pace you would still be counting tomorrow before we got there. Solder with some bloody lead in it might help For your next challenge, try soldering some 5 pin din plugs !!! The original Pip 1 uses 5 pin Din. Hence my reluctance to experiment with cables before Pip 2 with RCA's came along (rather later than first hoped). The stench of burning flesh when I was soldering 5 pin Dins could be sniffed in the next county. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 15:30:47 GMT
I dislike lead free solder. Get some proper stuff, and it will be much easier. How naughty. I've just ordered a tube. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 12, 2015 16:26:03 GMT
I have heard most hifi and cables get better with use.
Did a test a while back to prove it
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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 17:34:56 GMT
I have heard most hifi and cables get better with use. Did a test a while back to prove it I'll leave it to Wonky to have a go at proving the burn in idea with a cooked cable and a fresh cable to compare. Since he has the home advantage of one major cables result to his credit from last year, he should be feeling pretty bullish about this one. I hae me considerable doots. Not quite sure whether cables or "and now for something completely different" is the right place for this - but it was pretty impressive. To recap, I have bought Wonky's favourite cable and wired up a proper balanced set for the Benchmark, with a matching set for the Quad which I can experiment with shielding grounding on. I am concious of how many variables there are When I did my first tests, I had managed to feed my cables into their normal location. Sadly, this involves a 2m run with the signal cables and mains cables following a shared 1m vertical. I can keep them 2 ft apart for some of it, but they have to meet at the end. Grounding the shield was important in that scenario The new cables are too big, and anyway for temporary experiments, I just dangled them in front of the shelf - so further from the mains, and grounding the shield makes little if any difference. On a quick A:B. I still suspect this "noise" issue is key. Just because the noise has been pushed "very low" or "inaudible" doesnt mean it is absent, and very very low level noise I think is responsible for a lot of the last teeny weeny bits of detail. Maybe. However, I had the "B team" in listening while I ran the controls. Even Sue struggled to hear a difference in the shielding . But was complaining that the music had lost its sparkle. I'm not sure how much this is not liking the Klotz, and how much it is a "ratchet" effect . Anyway - dinner gong has gone. Plugged in the Benchmark with its proper cables, and Sue took 30 seconds to say "you can have one as a housewarming present" Hmm. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 18:10:49 GMT
........erm... no I'll resist....
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Post by pinkie on Jul 12, 2015 18:58:22 GMT
........erm... no I'll resist.... Fill yer boots Jez. Mainly prompted by a noise issue from a 5m cable run I have on my AV input, I've got the Jones brothers on the case too. So dealing with the ground loop using thick caravan earth wire to link the chassis grounds on the 2 amplifiers "silences" the hum - it doesn't completely remove it. It goes from being "audible" to "inaudible" but not below measurement threshold, and therefore perhaps affecting the music. The effect of grounding a shield is measurable Noise on the signal cable is an obvious source of audible differences. However, I guess to put the fairies to bed for a minute, the big differences are effectively "fault" scenarios. And much more to the point, regarding "not fannying about with cables" is the fact that we were straining and wondering, and maybe imagining a bit to tell 2 cables apart, and we plug in a radically better amplifier with a proper balanced connection and it was a huge "blow you away" sort of difference. So maybe thats why it belongs here on a cables thread, rather than the Benchmark thread. Whilst acknowledging cables can make a difference (interconnects and speakers - not mains) they are ephemeral compared with the big dramatic "take your breath away" differences "real" equipment makes |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 12, 2015 19:54:05 GMT
Balanced components and cables are clearly superior. I may have said this before  |
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