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Post by pre65 on Apr 5, 2015 9:31:19 GMT
As i made a pair of speakers years ago and then spend some time adjusting the sound care of crossover, padding and things cabinet to closer to my liking I feel I learned enough to know that I know nothing. But I do recognise unpleasantness.They were a bit toppy and over damped. I blame myself. I still have them, wonder what 200W will do rather then the 20W that used to coax them. Tell us more about them if you like.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 9:56:03 GMT
I just had to throw a lot of money at the problem to make what I consider to be a very good stab at it. I agree with that and did pretty much the same thing. The JM Lab Mezzos were close, the Ushers closer still to my ideal.
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 5, 2015 10:14:56 GMT
I prefer to get my system sounding as good as I can to extract what was laid down.
A good gig is better of course
A fabulous gig is the best thing in the world and I've been to a few. Wish I could recapture them. Live albums rarely do. No idea what the speakers or system was. I was transported
So here's a myth or not A fabulous gig needs good speakers ..... does it ?
Then there's the not so good gigs and I've been to a few of them Good speakers no help at all !
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 10:33:55 GMT
For me a good gig is so much more than sound. It is watching a band give it best. Its about the energy and atmosphere it also a shared experience that at times becomes euphoric.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 10:38:47 GMT
A great gig transcends sound quality, and the same goes for live recordings. Take Hawkwind's Space Ritual: simply great music, but very poor sound. Does it stop me from playing it? Nope.
However, given the choice, I far prefer great SQ and often prefer a carefully crafted studio recording to a poor live one.
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 10:53:56 GMT
I actually still prefer a really good gig But really good gigs are rare for me these days as been to so many
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 11:07:30 GMT
Me too, John. I went to loads of gigs when I lived in London, fewer these days. I was at the Town & Country Club weekly, the Marquee every so often, other small venues and, because my company sponsored the RPO, I went to whole seasons of RPO and LPO concerts at the Barbican and Festival Halls.
Now, it's much more of a faff getting to gigs.
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Post by Tim on Apr 5, 2015 11:24:05 GMT
For me a good gig is so much more than sound. An apt post to agree with for #700. Music to me either live or recorded, is so much more than just how it sounds - a lot more in fact.
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 11:29:39 GMT
Music for me can be transcendental experience
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 11:50:38 GMT
Now we are getting to the crux of the matter how real do you feel it right for you personally
Going back to a systems ability to truly communicate the sense of sheer realism this depends of your own point of reference.
DQ my favorite wooden spoon of judicious circular motion
With regards to rock music and its energy, dynamics and scale of sound albeit generated by the use of Marshall. Engal stacks to try and redress the balance of I my having 5 or 6 musicians trying to deliver a sound to compete with 120 players in a large concert venue.
A totally different perspective is require to.attempt to give an equal footing in terms of sheer physical presence of the dounfscape. Fully clever orchestra can produce
For close to 35 years I have played in various bands and musicians for my sins I'm the guy that hangs around with the musicians one of half of the engine room if you like the drummer or partial custodian of the rhythm section!
Now I play in two different outfits a piece true hard rock band and a 12 piece blues ensemble with flugel horn. Kick horn. And alto sax these guys play just to my right some 10 feet from my kit
The guys are great musicians real condumate players however the raw energy they produce is visceral and raw is how it sound in reality I wear defenders during the concert simply because I wish to keep my hearing tact
If I set up my drum kit in say DQ's front room you could not listen to the me at in the same room due to the physical dynamics I could or another drummer could generate
The same goes for a brass / percussion / string section in an Orchestra absolutely nothing to do with the musicians ability to play just the laws of physics
If you sit in the front 10 rows of a full scale concert performing Mahler, Wagner etc then the sheet dynamics of having 130 players at a very close distance will give the sound total real, raw, visceral and imitate but it will be far too much for the majority of listeners
During the mixing and mastering process the sound with be constructed to work on the capability of early modest systems hence why many recordings are the limitinge factor not the equipment
Last year we were involved with a European distributor who assembled a very well known.jazz endumble at a very well known Stockholm hotel along with two of the best recording engineers in Sweden one analogue the other digital.
In the next room a top flight audio system to replay the recording back to
Both recordings we sublime, however you would swear they were made by two different artists!
The perspectives were very different but equally valid with each engineer gaining a healthy respect for each others field expertise
I have a copy of this recording which I am happy to demonstrate on how it demonstrates a surreal closeness to the orginsl especially the piano it's dynamics, depth of texture and decay from the hammer leaving the string to the final resonance of the string
Back to the question how real dare you go?
Let us put a quantifiable measurement to this day a scale of 1 to 10
In the UK we generally prefer a warmer slightly fuller sound that you can turn up.loud and not be presented with any hard edges or break up
So if 1 on the scale translates to a pair of quad 11 amplifiers, a pair of quad 57's speakers a Meridian 588 CD player which would be a very safe and non invasive sound which could be likened to injecting mogadon into your eyeballs
Where as 10 would be a pair of Magico Q7's MSB uber dac and Dartzeel mono blocks delivering that being there feeling as close as possible.
This is nothing to do with the sheer volume of the sound but the ability of the system to convey reality
Most people in the UK would built a system in the 3-5 range the odd few like Martin around the 7 Mark
All this is relative to the individual and their preferences nothing more
With regard to classical musicians having soul domain over virtuosity of playing ability that is crock if dog pooh
Take the Lang Lang pianist technically brilliant. Speed. timing, poise all sublime but emotionless for me a manufacturered child prodigy undiably a genius but lacks a musical communication with the audience
For me Steve Via and Joe Satch are in this category technically amazing just no soul
A great many rock musicians are classically trained they just wanted to expend the musical horizons
A very famous rock composer once said we are as valid as anything by Beethoven
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 12:08:46 GMT
Never mind 10 rows, around 6 rows back for full scale Mahler/Shostakovich/Bruckner is about right for me. I do like to feel the music and I like to feel it when I'm at home, too.
This doesn't mean constantly loud; it means setting the volume appropriate to the quiet sections and having the dynamic headroom available to take your head right off during the crescendi.
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 13:32:49 GMT
The only way to have a band playing in your room is to have a band playing in your room Lol
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 14:08:31 GMT
Yep! But it's fun getting close
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 5, 2015 17:24:36 GMT
For me Steve Via and Joe Satch are in this category technically amazing just no soul I'd like to Ultra Zone up for Vai and The Extremist for Satch as examples of soul. Love them both They can get too clever and technical, but nowhere near as bad as Malmstein. Leaves me cold
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 18:26:27 GMT
Satch was good in concert but some of his albums seem to be an exercise in shredding over melody.
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 19:08:06 GMT
I was into Satch around Surfing with the Alien and fan of Vai with stuff like the Attitude Song I can sometimes listen to Vai these days when he plays with other people. Satch I not listened to in years. I still like a few players that are Technical Shawn Lane one of the most amazing players I ever seen Holdsworth leaves me a bit cold but Al Dimeola I love
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 19:45:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 19:49:37 GMT
I have seen Satch at various times in his career a great showman and superb player, also twice with the G3 groupings With Johnson and Morse both for me far more soulful and melodic players maybe not quite so three million notes a second but for me more accessible. Via and to some extent Andy Timmons (both former pupils of Joe Satch) have that big operatic sound with bone crushing dynamics and ultra fast fret work, hammers, trills etc. They are masters of the art without question never in dispute Malmstein for me is a piss poor Blackmore clone who's ability is limited to physdo neo classical ramblings intermixed with trying to break the world speed guitar record Musical masterbation on par with the finest exponents of free form jazz I would love to have the ability to play with the talent these guys have just my preference is for more melodic and soulful insightful players and hugely unrated (here in the UK) is Eric Johnson he is like Jeff Beck in that he is a guitarists guitarist. Joe Bonamassa is one of those interesting examples, he prefers the styles of the English blues rock exponents of the late 60's and 70's he carves his own furrow and is great musician again melodic and engaging also a nice chap and agreat sense of humour. Lathe usual suspects will be trotted out in a thread like Page the riff king par excellence again a superb player, I never really got into to Zeppelin or Page, however that does not detract from their ability to command an audience Robert Fripp a real quiet genius again overlooked by many, I came to him late in my musical journey but no less valid Dave Gilmor one of top players in the world bar none along with Beck and Blackmore these guys obtain tones from a Stratocaster like no others bar none instantly recognisable with their various sounds and tones Jeff Beck one of a kind a great guy as well even Clapton feels he can play That leaves the man in black, mister hire em, fire em merchant. The mercurial sod you Jack I'll play what I feel and you lot need to keep up or fook off A complete tosser or other worldly talent fill in as appropriate to your tastes he divides opinion as much as the Labour Party's ability to field a viable alternative to the current Tory boy incumbent Never really given the the credit he deserves though I suspect he doesn't care he stuck two fingers up to the business and just played wanted he wanted to and contuines to this day love him or hate. No denying the boy can play though
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 5, 2015 20:38:06 GMT
What I like about Jeff Beck so much is what he does with the spaces between notes. The master.
Fripp a talent like no other, Exposure is special, some of the KC stuff defies description
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2015 20:59:39 GMT
What I like about Beck, as with Gilmour, is how he uses his guitar to create sounds like no other. Instantly recognisable, he makes music first and foremost.
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