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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 9:27:20 GMT
When there is so much fabulous used kit out there, 80k speakers and 17k LP12s have become the domain of the rich and the new product market has shrank. Manufacturers, I feel, have taken the route of low volume high profit as a response to the preponderance of amazing used items that many of us buy, enjoy, sell, buy etc etc. in a way, the incredibly built products of yesteryear have sown the seeds of today's manufacturers demise.
There is still a market for new products, but they often have to be direct sell or chinese build in order to make their mark. The up-side for me at least is that hifi has become more of a hobbyist domain as folk like me learn, discuss and try to preserve/resurrect gems from the past. The corporate operations that the likes of Linn and Naim have become, really don't hold my interest. Small, idealist UK makers still do exist and these are the only ones I'd support wit new purchases.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 28, 2015 10:09:18 GMT
At the end of the day a product is only worth what you can sell it for. Long term companies like Linn, Naim, Meridian that have cachet can sell at premium prices. But the company scrapheap is piled high with short-lived audio companies that burned bright for a few years but eventually went bust. Relatively easy to start a business The problem comes with keeping it going and then keeping it going, repeat, repeat Product could be fabulous and you still go bust for so many other reasons
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 10:13:28 GMT
And therein lies another myth: you get what you pay for.
Firstly, retail price isn't a direct reflection of manufacturing cost, it also takes in all the advertising, retail,distribution, R&D costs etc too. It is also dependent upon market size and sales volumes. Then, manufacturers have different business models so their end price can differ significantly. That's before we factor in whether stuff is built or parts are sourced from China or elsewhere in order to lower costs. Finally, I honestly believe some manufacturers are greedy and simply charge the very most they think they can get away with, even if their own costs are a tiny fraction of this price.
That's just new products. The 2nd hand market offers incredible value IMO but even this varies. There are both undiscovered gems and fashionable overpriced bits out there. Prices also go in cycles on some items and then there are this Buy It Now bargains that pop up every so often.
Then we have the DIY market, whether self-build or modding to improve performance.
I have heard stellar sounding systems with budget prices and truly awful kit with telephone number price tags. Price paid only relates loosely to end resuls AFAIC.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 28, 2015 10:15:40 GMT
And therein lies another myth: you get what you pay for. Agree 100% Great scam which can be true and can also be the biggest lie going
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 10:25:10 GMT
I agree with all of the above comments regarding price of new kit from what used to be mainstream manufacturers
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 28, 2015 10:30:18 GMT
I think it's great that for many enthusiasts, and for all sorts of reasons, hifi is becoming more like it was back at the start of the hobby. It has the effect of making many people see that it isn't necessary to chuck huge wads of lolly at the job of getting a good sound. It seems to be exposing a lot of myths too!
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 28, 2015 10:40:19 GMT
Paraphrasing David Allen (GTD)
You do need spend but not as much as you think
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 10:53:47 GMT
IMO the best "investment" you can make is time. Reading and exchanging views on forums, learning a few basic DIY skills and hearing as many bits as you possibly can.
It's als a far more enjoyable investment than cash too!
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 28, 2015 11:03:27 GMT
Which leads quite nicely into another myth
Mains cannot affect how loudspeakers sound
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 12:01:51 GMT
But......but......but........the measurements!
Only joking. I agree with you. I have far smaller results on my current home and system but three houses back with an all aNaim system the mains differences were very significant.
Edit: and while we are at it here's another one. You need ribbons or electrostatics to produce the best soundstage. Spicas still beat anything else I have owned or heard in this respect. I enjoy speakers that don't produce a 3D soundstage too, so it's not the most important aspect to me, but it's lovely when it works alongside all the other aspects of music.
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Post by John on Mar 28, 2015 12:10:25 GMT
We still have a number of small manufacturers that sell direct to people, that are driven by peoples passion. They tend to offer great SQ at not crazy prices. The DIY route offers incredible value for money and so too the second market. Whilst I like looking at HIFI porn I really enjoy supporting some of the mavericks of the Industry
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 12:27:39 GMT
We still have a number of small manufacturers that sell direct to people, that are driven by peoples passion. They tend to offer great SQ at not crazy prices. The DIY route offers incredible value for money and so too the second market. Whilst I like looking at HIFI porn I really enjoy supporting some of the mavericks of the Industry , Story Of my life and something I'm proud of. Nothing like buying kit from one bloke who passionately believes in what he's doing.
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Post by canetoad on Mar 28, 2015 13:19:16 GMT
Yep, hard to justify an LP12 unless you shit money...
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Post by tony on Mar 28, 2015 15:43:40 GMT
I took the leap of faith with speakers built by a passionate music lover....my statics remain in the attic awaiting an unforeseen windfall to refurbish them. My son is enjoying my donated Spendors.
I have never looked back-best sound ive had in my room for really justifiable outlay.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Mar 28, 2015 17:56:22 GMT
Yep, hard to justify an LP12 unless you shit money... If - if only I could… If only I could… I'd never be off the pan…
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 28, 2015 18:36:20 GMT
Surely a 2nd hand LP12 isn't that much, is it ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 19:15:30 GMT
Early 1980's ones with ITTOK arm seem to go for less than a grand. Recent ones with some of the bells and whistles (but not all the go-faster formula 1 gubbins) go for between £2k and £5k
The risk you have to weigh up is how much use a 1980's one has had - new belt for sure, but what are the motor and main bearings like? Has it been looked after for the last 35 years?
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Post by Greg on Mar 28, 2015 21:17:32 GMT
Early 1980's ones with ITTOK arm seem to go for less than a grand. Recent ones with some of the bells and whistles (but not all the go-faster formula 1 gubbins) go for between £2k and £5k The risk you have to weigh up is how much use a 1980's one has had - new belt for sure, but what are the motor and main bearings like? Has it been looked after for the last 35 years? And to be sure, speaking from experience The PSU board be it basic or Valhalla will be burnt out, or certainly under performing and will need replacing. In the good old days, Linn dealers would help you out by fitting a replacement board for a very nice price because it was second hand and came out of a TT owned by someone completely hooked on the upgrade process, the replacement board being pretty well little used. It's been a while for me so don't know if this option still exists. After I had my Lp12/Ittok/Valhalla as described above, I sold it and moved onto an early OL TT kit which really didn't work. Returned it for money back and got a Michell Gyro SE which I later Orb'd and got the improved PSU. I then experimented with a rather scruffy Garrard 401 which immediately showed me what I was missing. Sold the Gyro and bought a very good condition Garrard 401 and mounted it in a Slatedeck (sadly no longer trading) using the hardest and most dense slate being Welsh Blue, from Snowdonia. I carried out a thorough service of the 401 and now remain completely content with my vinyl delivery through an Ortofon KB into an Audiomods Rega derivative. Dominic Harper, from Northwest Anologue, a specialist in Garrards says, "Once you have a well fettled Garrard, you have a turntable for life." Have to say, I agree Oh should also say, I prefer my Garrard over an SP10 which some say is a better option. The SP10 works well but lacks an organic and immotive sound. Detailed but very dry and a bit bland overall. Massive thread drift but suspect under the circumstances, acceptable.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 29, 2015 8:29:16 GMT
Early 1980's ones with ITTOK arm seem to go for less than a grand. Recent ones with some of the bells and whistles (but not all the go-faster formula 1 gubbins) go for between £2k and £5k The risk you have to weigh up is how much use a 1980's one has had - new belt for sure, but what are the motor and main bearings like? Has it been looked after for the last 35 years? Mine is mid 80s. Serviced a couple of years back at Infidelity Not sure what "service" means in relation to belt, bearings etc I *think* I looked after it.......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 18:03:53 GMT
Interesting experiences, Tony.
But if everything is right but the "musical connection" is missing, then maybe that is a false add-on created by lesser systems? I've been to some pretty boring live concerts where musical connection was essentially zero!
Not, of course, that I am affected by your comments on MBL systems I have only heard them at London hifi shows, but hearing them at those definitely made MBL my 'dream speaker' and I subsequently bought a fairly humble model from their range, which is probably all that my room would tolerate! My initial thought was to buy a used pair of the larger 101E, but I rethought after room considerations made it seem unsuitable. Coming up to 5 years now and I have never regretted the purchase. It's the nearest I have heard to the sound of real music in my (or anyone's) home, imo. I have no problem at all establishing a connection with the music!
We all have different expectations and preferences of what we want from our hifi systems.
Hi Jerry Have now got the time to reply been a seriously busy week! A great many hi end speaker and electronics manufacturers produce equipment which has a certain or distinctive sound which has been selected or chosen as they desired 'house sound' by the design team or individual. I would characterize this as 'Hi end sparkle' where a preferred *artifact* or *polishing*, *rounding off*, *highlighting* of the upper frequencies possibly as well as extra girth in the lower end. These are designed to entice buyers with possibly a more seductive sound or wow factor which in itself is not a problem if you gravitate towards these manufactured / engineered sounds. Now as audio is one of the most subjective hobbies in existence why should you care? if it doesn't float your boast you simply purchase another piece of equipment you do prefer easy non? Now how close to real thing does high end actually get you, I mean can you truly produce a 120 piece orchestra or Metallic concert in your front room? Well possibly you could have a jolly good go if you room was 50' x 50' x 35' and your speakers were Grand Utopia's YG Sonja's Wilson Alexandria XLF's Eggleton work Ivy's Magico Q7's TAD R-1's with amplification and a front end source to match. But how close would it really be?, can you really judge this, would you genuinely know what to expect or indeed compare to? All the above speakers exhibit many traits which are similar, ultra high bandwidth, high spl capability, genuine in room bass extension below 25Hz significant room presence, world class dynamics etc. At that point it stops and the strengths and weaknesses become apprant, and therefore personal preferences take over. One delivers a stage size which is quite something if 18 foot Eric Claptons are you thing with a polished Phil Spector style then you head stateside, if textural layering, depth of field and presence fill your boots, then over the channel you go etc. How many of you can say hand on heart what a 120 piece Orchestra sounds like in an concert hall up close or an intimate gig with Jeff Beck with a full blues band with flugelhorn, kick horn and sax's next to you? The sound is intensely dynamic and immediate, rasping, brash up front and above all LOUD. This is how it sounds in the flesh, when the musicians are great acoustics are all good and the band / orchestra is firing on all cylinders. How does that translate into your system, well you have the recording processes to take into account before you get anywhere near your sonic reproduction system, compression, record company interference, projected sales etc all have an impact before you get to play it! So things are smoothed out and rounded off to create that healthy balance of being there and listen-ability. Human's are far more sensitive to upper frequency distortions, shrillness, forwardness, brash, shrape sounds hence why it is generally human nature to gravitate towards easier listening sounds. So the high end manufacturers perception of sale generation is to produce 'up market Hifi' so they are business and business need to make money and play to their strengths, so let us deliver Hifi for the discerning palate in a way that make you feel good about and has the air of pride of ownership, not a great deal to do with genuine musical reproduction which faithful to the way it was intended to be played by the writer, composer or musicians. Instead a manufactured / created sound that is pleasing and created desirable with a far more polished and artificially induced sound. MBL speakers (imho) work their very best with all MBL equipment there is a great synergy at work there. Iam fortunate to have access to a couple of full monte' MBL systems and these set ups have the space to fully demonstrate the true capabilities of what they can do. Make no mistake these are stunning systems and produvce an image like no other system in existence a true wrap around experience like no other, delicacy, tonal quality and spatial awareness is up there with the very best systems money can buy. Bass response, depth and timing are another matter and those customers that purchase these systems have a very specific requirement in their presentation desires. For example a Alexandria and D'Agostino owner is not going to look an MBL for the same reason he purchased his system. In a similar vain a Living voice Olympia / 300b owner is not going to be purchasing Constellation amps and Magico Q7's. It is all a personal preference, fun finding out to!
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