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Post by speedysteve on Mar 19, 2024 9:20:26 GMT
Lash ups with care and attention are the best🤩
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 18, 2024 22:00:07 GMT
Well, I lasted just over 2 weeks with the sound of the BMS 4550 1" drivers in the conical SH50 alikes. Don't get me wrong, on a dance floor, or a wedding it works just fine. Personally for me - long term hifi listening it just lacked that emotionally epic, draw you in performance and sound I get from my Vitavox S2s on the Le Cléac'h horn. So here's what I'm listening to now 😂 Might fine too! Subs - Still the tapped horns LF and MF the SH50 alike Synergy horn HF- S2s / Le Cléac'h HF+ Raal Lazy ribbons I went back to my usual implementation of crossovers that are chosen for similar slopes to give good phase aligned overlaps (not trying to flat phase adjust outside of the Synergy horn). To sum up, I like the LF bass performance from the Synergy, the MF is fine enough too (for now?). Now I have the S2 magic back too, and if my daughters come and listen they will not miss the Raal HF+. Also, I'm not listening in a big cinema room where even sound coverage is important. What next? Who knows. Oh and none of this would be possible without a quality DSP X/O solution allowing almost infinite configurabilty and consistent sound quality to be able to judge all the setups. Trusty measuring mic and Holmimpulse are also my friends. One day I will learn REW..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 16, 2024 21:32:22 GMT
Couldn't stop there😀
This evening I focused on the BMS 4550 compression drivers in the SH50s.
I've been having a bit of a hard time comparing them with the Vitavox S2s (latest issue diaphragms, fully refurbished) on Le Cléac'h horns.
Things like piano and female vocal just not smooth enough..
I searched for tuning compression drivers and wasn't disappointed😀
I focused on the FR peaks when looking at high detail, 1/16 or more smoothing - much higher detail than I usually care to look.
I cut the worst peaks on each BMS HF channel and had a listen. Much smoother but not dulled.
Could Inc the SPL a bit to taste, for more dynamics, without the grating or setting my ears on edge.
It's a much nicer listen.
Then did the same on the MF (Celestion 5"ers).
One thing I noticed in the measurements answered one of my construction questions...!
Comparing the RH MF (where I had dished the taps under the drivers), when looking in that sort of detail gave quite a bit smoother FR curve than the LH channel (I'd purposefully just done straight holes through)..
The difference is not audible to me as such, but it is on the plots.
I will dish them next time I have the thing apart for some reason.
So that's cleared that up for me🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 15, 2024 21:02:53 GMT
Played around using this procedure 1. No X/Os on the LF and MF. BW 6dB/oct on HF hi-pass. I am using 1000Hz at the moment as it takes over from the MF nicely. 2. Volume level the drivers 3. Smooth the frequency plots using PEQs, hammer down the LF to interface with the MF. Hammer down any high freq rubbish from LF and MF that otherwise spoils the HF sound (had this to start with) 4. Further adjust to give nice enough Freq plot with the 3 drivers in unison. 5. Move time alignment of MF in relationship to HF back and forth, trial and error to get sweet spot regarding phase flatness. Same with LF to find the sweet spot. 6. Adjust PEQs to improve phase flatness 7. Kick back and listen🎶 The result is close to not more than 45° phase shift, 10KHz and down to beyond the point at which the MF hands over to the LF. It's a bit crinkle cut 🍟 at 1/6 smoothing. This is as close as have been to the Synergy concept doing its flattish phase thing. I then added the tapped horns in, doing usual, selection of appropriate opposing X/O slopes, aligning the phases between Tapped horns and Synergy LF phase plots. Sounds very composed and clean. Calm and even right across the frequency range. That's the Synergy. They can play incredibly loud too, cleanly, without pissing my ears off - that the reduced 2nd/3rd room reflections. This is probably as far as I'll bother getting them in the listening room The sound is the sound - SH50 alike house sound. Other than getting the real deal Misco MF drivers, and Faital 12"ers for the LF. What I have work just fine. Danley doesn't use boutique drivers😎 Next step is live with them for a while, see how they grow on me. When the weather improves, I'll take them outside and connect up my 3 PA Amps to drive them loud, control with a Behringer DCX2496 I still have, set them up and see what they can do <headbanger> Might need to add the extra LF driver (= 6dB more loudness) and the 2 extra MFs per side - we'll see. After that, perhaps it's time to take on an SM60F alike build Or custom dispersion angle MEH?🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 12, 2024 22:43:31 GMT
After a while in the less than flat phase wilderness, and lots of time spent with fiddling with PEQs (both over and under done🙄🙂), 1st order X/Os on and off, and some time alignment to subtly shift phase too (I've read how to posts and guides over and over!)...
I've got something a lot closer to flat phase over most of the freq range!
It sounds much better too.
I'm still not sure I'm doing it right, and the little kink (bubble), around the X/O point between MF and HF is still there but within 40 degrees phase shift now.
The LF still climbs as frequence drops - seemingly nothing I can do about that.
The higher HF frequency still has phase drop a bit.
However, It's a balanced sound.
Across the range it definitely completes with the old 5 way system now!
Just that HF smoothness that the Vitavox S2s and Le Cléac'h combo had - esp on female vocal, that I can't get out of my brain!
I just had a though to add some whole tube rings to the HF amp, calms things down!
I'm loving the fact that the freq coverage of various instruments isn't moving around across drivers in a big physical space any more!
Time alignment of the two channels helped imaging.
A bit closer to audio heaven😂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 11, 2024 18:20:57 GMT
Yes Synergys are there to be found 🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 22:54:56 GMT
Took the back off the full rear cab. Filled the driverless half with sturdy IKEA zip bags I'd stuffed with needled upholstery felt. Had a measure. That's better. Love it when a plan comes together. This means that the tapped horns can do just 20-50Hz or so. Can try going down to just one, for fun. I've put chasing flatter phase aside for the time being. EQ'd so it measures okay with each driver doing it's thing and no more, it's really starting to sing. Daughters with younger ears listened to a lots of material they like. Streaming is great for that. Not a song they wanted that Qobuz didn't have. They noticed the missing top Freq 'snow'. It doesn't bother me, but of course the Raal Lazy Ribbons I was using gave up to super tweeter frequencies, if the gear I use actually passed that on. They described it as direct but tonally pleasing. Compared it to the 5 way system favourably, commended the wider listening presentation than just the lightening spot. The anywhere to wander around thing impressed. As did playing it silly loud 😎 Thought it was a keeper. They are very honest about these things. Youngest would like the Raal ribbons playing over the top.. Pic they took Now it's tme for a rest and settle down for a listen and resist fiddling too much That is until I realise something can be improved upon😀
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 16:28:51 GMT
So, as you had suspected, the bigger volume cab damages low frequency response? Yes, it was designed for 2 X 12" LF, double the MF driver quota and a large passive crossover board! I, rather by luck, got the 1st lash up cab just right! 😂 I will stuff it with tough bags filled with felt or glass fibre insulation to achieve the same with very little extra mass. I will then make a full cab rear for the other one too, pre-stuffed. The full rear looks the business..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 13:28:15 GMT
Progress for sure. Sounded better this morning.. I've left just the HF and MF playing away all day.. I was tired last night, today I def heard a difference in LF response. I took some LF sweeps in the cold light of day! This (blue plot) is what double the volume of back cab does to the low freq resp! I'll be adjusting this PDQ! Meanwhile I've left the HF and MF playing away all day to help break them in. Will be demoing to our daughters this afternoon. They've grown up with my hifi shenanigans over the years, and have pretty astute ears!
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 7:49:19 GMT
A little update. Having tuned the pair yesterday and got the SPLs of each driver about right, things started coming together more. I tried time aligning each driver within the horns to my listening spot.. I know, but I wanted to see:) As expected having all 3 at the same setting and letting the Synergy do it's thing sounded much better. What's the point of Synergy otherwise? With only one 12" LF woofer per SH50 side (6dB down on Art's calcs ) there's still PLENTY of LF SPL in my room! I can't say I can hear the difference double the reflex volume is making on the left channel vs half on the right. I'm surprised at that! I took the short port extenders out of the righthand side.. Less bass SPL. I'll try with them in both sides next, but might have to PEQ to smooth things a bit. There's no port sounds that I can detect. I had too much overlap with the tapped horns in the beginning and at higher volumes things in the room started resonating - not the speakers themselves but just random items that needed moving a bit I then listened with the tapped horns off and there is still quite a bit of bass going on. 4 string bass guitar is covered pretty well by the SH50s alone! Not quite deep enough for my tastes, but that's why I have tapped horns:) I will try just one tapped horn next and see if that works. Coming it at 50Hz or so, should be directionless. I like the LF tone and presence I'm getting. The MF and LF presentation is quite a bit different to what I'm used to. It's drier and perhaps more accurate. If you could some how put that Vitavox S2 / Le Cleach horn sound inside the SH50 it would tick many boxes! The BMS4550 is still a bit screechy at times (running in still esp the new LH side), but getting better with time. The MF is there but not really standing out - also still running it, I'm getting familiar with the different presentation these give, so called point source. Some material is excellent, others I miss what the old system did. With a pair, the true omi-directional ability is coming to the fore. You can sit pretty much anywhere in the room and it sounds good, uniform and true. If you demo a lot or play to a larger audience perfect, I can see why these are good in larger home cinemas. So, to sum up; - like the bass. Love the compact length (compared with old 1.3m long straight, no so LF horns). - like the omnipresentation sound. - MF and HF needs more running in / more tuning - even even small SPL changes improve things or worsen them. Things that spring to mind immediately - these may change with running in and tuning more. - Could try a hybrid using the SH50 LF and my usual tractrix MF and Le Cleach HF - but that kinda defeats the whole object! - Plan the next project - a pair of SH60F alikes.. What coaxials to use, purchase 4 x 8" drivers etc etc. I'm really enjoying the journey with these.
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 8, 2024 22:18:11 GMT
2nd completed today. And lifted into place. Angled to the side wall, as per Danley wisdom Did my driver checks as usual. Wiring all okay. Ran some sweeps, all looked okay. On this cab I decided not to do any dishing driver side of the MR taps. Resulting sweep No XO or PEQ. Forgot to click up to 1/6! Plenty low! I also made a full volume rear cab cover for this one. This has double the volume of the first one I made. Other thing I tried was omitting the sound deadening sheeting, just to see the difference. LF was down on SPL! Upped it on the amp. The LF plot isn't quite as nice either (Pretty sure the sound deadening isn't what giving me less SPL on bass only. Other thing is the bass drivers are fully run in of course). After tweaking similarly to the RH side, time for a listen. First thoughts are, its actually quite polite, very revealing direct, but refined (less distortion from reflections of the Le Cléac'h and Tractrix? More thoughts later..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 7, 2024 11:49:56 GMT
That is a beautiful build! I would never have the time or patience with my current todo list, to build them like that for myself! I've read about the B&C dcx464 coaxial being used. Not cheap at £500+ but nothing to TAD / Vitavox / Goto. Danley uses a BMS coaxial. Really nice looking speakers and quite compact too. I think you have no problem building some. True, but I like prototyping and trying new things too much to bother with fancy finishes for myself📐📏⚙️🔨🗑️
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 6, 2024 23:55:57 GMT
That is a beautiful build! I would never have the time or patience with my current todo list, to build them like that for myself! I've read about the B&C dcx464 coaxial being used. Not cheap at £500+ but nothing to TAD / Vitavox / Goto. Danley uses a BMS coaxial.
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 6, 2024 23:22:10 GMT
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 6, 2024 7:40:33 GMT
Reading up on the HRE1 system..
"Tom's relatively recent four way HRE1 designed for home theaters uses four amp channels and FIR DSP."
I can understand why. Active is good. From what I've read FIR implements any type of crossover, frequency control etc without messing up phase - "linear phase xovers do not introduce any phase rotations, at any order. They introduce excess fixed time latency, like time of flight, instead."
My Najda DSP XO can do FIR. The lower the frequency the more FIR taps required. It does not have enough processor power for sub woofer control, but the 1024 taps available could be enough for the 3 way synergy.
I've always wanted to explore this..
Once the 2nd horn is made and in, if I like the signature of the sound, this would be something I'll explore.
It's not getting any simpler for the grey matter it's it😀
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 4, 2024 21:30:46 GMT
Thanks Matt. Labour of love🙂 With help from Synergy set up experts, I'm getting closer to a target less than 45° phase change over the 3 ways of the Synergy horn. Can't rid myself yet of the big dip bottoming at 3KHz though. The change in refinement I'm hearing (just draws you into the music effortlessly), this is producing is quite profound! How Tom Danley does all that in passive XO world I'll never know.. I don't have his exact mid range or bass drivers though - might account for some of it - esp the LF rise.. The MF is well behaved now When you compare this to other multiway systems and not just horns by the way, the phase shifts are huge on them! - clean off the chart, top and bottom, wrapping around over and over. This coherence / symbiosis of driver cooperation is what I'm hearing.
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 4, 2024 16:45:44 GMT
Yes, renting would be one way to test. Don't think you could rent HRE1s - there is a dealer I know who is very enamoured with them (doesn't stock normally though it seems). Being a $46000 a pair outlay $🙂$
I've seen various unity and MEH builds with all sorts of drivers. Even TAD2001.
I'd use my Vitavox S2s if I could, but being 1.5" throat they play too deep and not high enough, they would require a tweeter, and that kinda defeats the whole object..
I'd try the SM60Fs, has the same 1" / 5" cone coaxial, as the HRE1s (more domestic hi-end offering).
That said there's not much wrong with the BMS 4550 HF sound. It's not accurate and clean than the S2 but just as fast and detailed.
I'll know more once I have a pair of Synergy's.
Listening A / B old horns to Synergy (now it's getting more dialled), I'm liking that side more and more..
I've assembled the 2nd pyramid, mouth flares go on tomorrow..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 4, 2024 7:15:09 GMT
Some more musings on the synergy design:
"The synergy magic ime/ime, is the tight 1/4 wave integration of driver sections. Acoustic close-coupling is truly magic...bless Tom D."
"Reading Tom D's posts it seems the synergy speakers work by pushing the drivers together using acoustic 4th order slopes. These slopes are achieved without using 'conventional named' slopes, ie slopes that introduce phase shift through the xo region. This agrees with Chris's posts regarding 1st order slopes."
Last night I measured each driver with no X/O's in Najda! Sure enough there is the effect of X/Os more or less where you want them, thanks to the above design! Tried 1st order only and it was a huge improvement.
Today I will try only PEQ filters in the right places to assist/shape the acoustic 4th order slopes and see.
This getting away from phase shifting X/Os is intriguing!
The audible difference is palpable. There I was chucking in steep slopes cos' that's what you do, when the design has already done the heavy lifting!
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 3, 2024 22:53:47 GMT
Wood procured for 2nd Synergy horn. Princely sub of £30! I even had time to cut the 4 pyramid sides out! Today's tweaking was derived by some excellent expert advice from a DIYaudio'er. The full procedure he'd posted up here too. community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/182419-subconscious-auditory-effects-of-quasi-linear-phase-loudspeakers/page/4/#comment-2388972Here's what he wrote to me "The good thing about MEHs is that a simple set of first order crossover filters--that uses the first cancellation (notch frequency) of the lower frequency drivers as the low pass crossover frequency--will always provide time-aligned settings that is a hallmark of the MEHs that Tom Danley promotes ("unity summation aperture"). First order MEH crossover settings produce a quasi-linear phase response (or should I say "minimum phase response" in the case of MEHs) of the lower frequency drivers mounted to the horn (midranges, woofers) without the creation of significant excess phase (all-pass) or large spikes and delay offsets in the excess group delay plot--all of which are audible. They actually need the 90 degrees of phase shift of a first order set of filters to time align the lower frequency drivers, which are closer to the listener, to the higher frequency driver." I understand most of this😀 I've implemented it pretty well. My phase plot is flatter with one peak.. more work required. Damn this design is clever! The sound going from standard 2nd or 4th order X/Os I'd been using before is night and day. This new setup makes the old one, I thought was pretty good, sound just terrible! Amazing progress!
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 2, 2024 18:07:08 GMT
Are you listening before having created the sealed chamber for the woofer? Doesn't that dramatically affect the balance? I made the rear reflex enclosure before listening. The new drivers really did take breaking in well. Still a way to go yet though. I've now moved it right back to the corner farthest away from me. Nearly 5m! I like it more, the bass instantly extended to 50Hz! That's corner loading for you! I played around with the X/Os some more. Apparently with a Synergy you have to phase align with the mic at 1m from mouth. Will do that this evening. Don't know which side I prefer now? Will build another to have a pair to see. Can always sell to some headbanger if it doesn't work out..😂
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