When I play the traditional steeper crossover setup to my wife, and then the flatter phase coherent setup back to back, she immediately said the trad setup sounds like a flatter wall. All the music is there but it's 2d.
When describing the phase coherent setup, she rotated her hands over and over nearer then farther away from the speakers, and explained there was a depth to them, that was previously lacking.
She doesn't spend hours listening and reading like I do, so it's an obvious and tangible change that she picked up on.
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
When are you installing the Horns into your car? 😃
People have😃, the guy who did that analysis has I believe. There are mini Unity horns which helps the smaller front stuff. Huge bass systems no problem for them. The car audio brigade have 10 and even 12 output DSP units. CPU power for full FIR. I've wondered how good they might found on a hifi. 12V battery power 🤔
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
Found this interesting analysis and explanation of group delay; I've cut down on some of the tech stuff
"The Danley speakers are phase coherent, but the midrange is closer to the listener than the tweeter, and the woofer is closer still. Lets figure out how this works.
If you have an array of speakers in sealed boxes, you can time align them by arranging the drivers in an arc around your head. The reason that this works is that a well behaved driver in a sealed box has nearly no group delay in it's passband. (This pic is of a car, but the concepts work in a car, a room, a studio or a rock concert.)
We could use DSP to offset the group delay. Or we could physically move them. The animation above shows how far we have to move the midrange and the midbass to compensate for the group delay introduced by the bandpass box. In this example, the midrange is 'pulled' forward by 25 centimeters, and the midbass is 'pulled' forward by 40cm.
Here's a picture comparing the predicted locations of our tweeter, midrange and midbass. Layered on top is the Danley SH-50 Synergy horn.
There are some small differences. The Danley tweeter is closer. I believe this is because the compression driver has a built in group delay. (IE, a dome tweeter would not have a delay, but a compression driver *will*, because a compression driver is basically a bandpass enclosure also.) The Danley woofers are further away than my sim. I believe this is because it makes the enclosure smaller, and at low frequencies, a difference of six inches won't mean a whole lot. If you look at the Danley SH-25 horn, you'll notice that the woofers are much further down the throat than in the SH-50."
I get most of this stuff😃
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Definitely streaming, sheer availability of good sounding music, all the latest plus lots of remastered and previously unreleased material and versions. There are simply not enough tracks on a vinyl disc 🙂
From there I would be looking at something unconventional. I can't ever see myself going back to flat front baffle box speakers (phase issues). Electrostatics clean sound maybe but harder to integrate good bass. I could see myself buying a pair of Danley HRE1s though - Integrated FIR DSP, really clever one box design. I've not heard them but the sound is said to be exceptionally right and hi-end. I would demo first of course😃
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
2 replacing 22 and sub woofers doesn't sound possible
Incredible tech Danley
If they were the J8-94s..
"The J8-94 is built from the same architecture as the J7, utilizing a remarkably high driver density. The J8 is a Synergy Horn™ with an impressive 46 drivers connected to a single horn with 24 1″ compression drivers mated to a fifth-generation high frequency combiner, 10 10″ horn loaded low frequency drivers and 12 6″ horn loaded mid-range drivers. Such power results in excellent response in both magnitude and phase while doing so at astounding output capabilities."
Only 46 drivers Mike!
Or maybe the J1-94
"A single cabinet J1-94 produces quality audio well beyond 1,000 feet from a true full range point source. The J1-94 houses six 18-inch drivers, six 6-inch mid-range drivers and three 1.4-inch-high frequency drivers. That’s 15 drivers seamlessly combining to provide more than 145 dB SPL."
They look great. Quite large taps and ports. All tuned to suit, no doubt.
I've read they really are an amazing thing in PA hi end music compared to the usual hotch potch.
This one is worth a watch / read
Fascinating how easy it is to dial the system in compared to arrays! Plus how robust it is against the wind!
The Jerichos are aptly named😃 Huge, huge power in a Synergy format. Literally loud enough to shake down the walls😃 But with loud quality, not just loud quantity.
I'm still evolving my tuning of the SH-50s.
I've got the flatter phase tuning working really well. The Vitavox S2 are really good in the mix! Apart from a 1st order XO on the high pass of the LF and same but a 4uF cap on the HF, there are no other electrical X/Os in use. Uses the Danley intended design of acoustic XOs, created by pressure behind the taps and 1/4 wave spacing thing! With some PEQ filters to shape to achieve the phase trick.
Much preferable to the standard XO slopes. It's like a totally different system between the two. I can flick the DSP settings between the two to hear / demo.
Standard it sounds like a refined Hifi, everything in its place. The Danley phase setup is fuller, deeper in time somehow, much more like live music. Of course, if you go to a nice set up sound reinforcement live gig, you might be lucky enough to hear the performance over a pair of SH-50s or 96s or even Jerichos😍
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
I'm enjoying the Redber decaf beans (Mexican / Guatamalan / Costa Rica all using the water method), that I roast in a flax oil perma- treated pan. Using a lid allows for a more event hot roasting temp, with less direct heat from below.
I've started having one scoop caffeinated (also home roasted, beans I had left from Silver Oak (Ely), and one scoop decaf. I'll probably go over to Redber's caf offerings next time.
Being green beans I can buy in bulk and roast when required.
I've found that I actually sleep better at night with a little bit (one shot) of caffeine coffee in the morning.. something about being invigorated a bit and then coming down during the day, being ready for deep sleep at night😴 I don't know how that works but it does😂
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
It's in Swedish but great atmosphere and Swedish wilderness.
Btw, did you know that the Swedish guy who wrote the Mandalorian themes Ludvig Göransson, produced Rihanna's Lift Me Up (wife's tough test track to see if the vocals realistic and handled).
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
I always find comparisons; old left Vs new right, or vice versa rather difficult. Listening in mono is not very nice either, or revealing. I usually go ahead and build/convert the second one to match, just to confirm suspicions, one way or another.
I enlisted the help of wifey’s ears too.
She thought she loved the S2s on Le Cléac’h, the latest hybrid Le Cléac’h/Synergys were a hit with her!
However, hearing the Le Cléac’h side verses the Synergy with S2 side, it was not so clear. The Synergy side made the Le Cléac’h side sound a bit congested and even, dare I use that word, coloured! More horn somehow! The Synergy side is clearer, cleaner and crisper. Still had that richer 1.5" throat, 3" diaphragm tone though. Neat trick!
This was without much setting up on it too.
I worked away yesterday to covert the left side to match.
Here is the S2 poking out the rear🙂 nice and accessible. Foam seal and bit of tape stops the LF leaking out.
Can always turn a nice trim ring if these turn out to be keepers. A simple blanking plate if the BMS’s are too be used for PA…
The BMS4550s already in the parts bin!
I've since gone on to covert the 2nd one.
Will set up later today and have a proper listen.
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
speedysteve is it my imagination or have you made many more changes to your system recently than ever before ?
And still the improvements .... I'd be too keen to listen to the system and stay in my chair rather than going to make more mods
Yes and yes.
The synergy SH50s were a big step change. Completely different ethos.
They brought new potential to the system.
Lots of confirguration and tuning possibilities. I'm working through them as I knew I would and as ones present themselves. Like the S2s on the back..
Better, hmm maybe. I think the old system had come on a long, long way since you last heard it. Massively in fact. Le Cléac'h, all the phase timing work, but front end (streaming).
That verses the SH50s with the Le Cléac'h on is more a matter of taste perhaps.
More in the Synergy / SH50 plus S2 on the back sound later.
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This question was answered with, it's the longest of the 3, Inc the compression driver depth then..
But exhibit b)
"It is my opinion that the 1/4 wave rule is not necessary and I believe that Tom's second patent removes it. One simply wants the drivers as close together and as far down the device as possible. Everything else is taken care of with EQ (to the extent that is possible.)"
I think I will just have to try it with the S2s and see how it measures..
I lose the quick switchover 2 in one systems though - if I absolutely love the sound, that is..
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Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
It will be interesting demo'ing next time, to see what folk prefer.. We all hear so differently, have preferences based on that and what we've been exposed to, good and bad.
There's another branch to this tree. Seeing if the Vitavox S2 will squeeze on the back of the SH50 horn. Cutting the horn off some fraction of an inch to go from 1" to 1.5" is easy, or as I suspect I'll run into the 5" MF drivers before I get to 1.5", then would just bore out and shape a new 1.5" diameter throat, in the existing horn walls.
I can make an adapter to go from the new 1.5" to usual 1" too, should I wish to refit the BMS driver.
What's trickier is the length of the Vitavox driver. The diaphragm is about 4" back from the exit.. Most modern compression drivers are short. I need to find out if the 1/4 wavelength thing is a) from the horn throat, b) if Danley took the length of the BMS 4550 driver (from exit to diaphragm) into consideration. The patent and drawing doesn't cover that, as far as I can see.
The former makes it child's play. The latter is problematic. I don't think there enough room then.
I've seen a TAD2001 on the back of other MEH / unity horns (forerunner to Synergy) creations. Different geometries to the SH50 maybe.
Here's the pic
The diaphragm is around about where the silver ring is - long way back.
Note there are no LF woofers here.
If the S2s fit and knowing I like their sound it would be amazing to try them. I don't mind adding the Raal tweeters on for the HF+
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Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
After a great time exploring Danley Sound Labs' Synergy SH50 design, experimenting with a pair I DIY'd, it's back on track with the 5 way horn system!
But... not as we knew it Jim!
3 long-standing components are still in the mix.
- Raal 9" Lazy ribbons. - Vitavox S2s on 550Hz soft wood Le Cléac'h horns I turned some 3 or 4 years ago. - 2.4m tall/long Tapped horns (also a Danley Sound Labs design) I made some 12 years ago now!
What's new then? The Danley SH50 conical horn is now doing LF, using the trusty Eminence Kappa 12A. Though playing a big deeper than trad mid bass straight horns - thanks to the horn loading being seamlessly knitted with reflex port loading. The SH50s are also being used Synergy wise, for the MF - from the 4 little 5" Celestion sealed back cone drivers.
Better pic of the lash up
Whilst lash up can be used to describe the current physical assembly / look. The acoustic / electrical setup is anything but. I've spent lots of care and attention measuring, time spent on the frequency response, crossover slope choices fitting for each driver range, how they interface with the adjacent drivers, and phase alignment.
The resulting sound is the best I've ever had from my system!
Improvements over previous 5 way systems are most noticeable in the LF bass of SH50, plus more cohesion between the LF and MF from the Synergy design, and the more compact and vertical inline layout of the MF and HF drivers.
It's taken a good while to realise the potential. I enjoy the journey and reaping the musical rewards.
Dynamically recorded live music really sounds live! I guess thanks to all the drivers being the sort of thing you could hear live music over at a well prepped venue, but it's also super refined and accurate on studio recordings.
Another really cool thing is that within seconds I can configure it to be a pure Danley'esk 4 way - the tapped horns + 3 way synergy SH50.
I have 2 systems in one. They sound quite different
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The Le Cléac'h Synergy idea won't work! The long narrow throat makes mounting the drivers impossible + the narrowness would make it too sensitive to the disruption of the taps.
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.
Broadband connection is almost certainly the cause of Bubble stopping Fault 501 Started yesterday and just started again today, 10.30am
Speedtest struggling to make it to 4Mbps down
speedysteve do you think mConnect would do better with this or is the Rendu the problem ?
I never get an equivalent of 501 with mConnect. However 501 was not a problem for me with Bubble - very rare. Hard crash and reboot of Rendu, and output interface (Gustard U18 in my case), off and on, was the only problem really.
Your problems sound like they would try any combination of control SW and Streamer.
Fix the root cause?!
Do you have a Lan sniffer so you can see what's really going on (can't remember if you have analysed - I've never needed to so can't help).
Aren't they offering full fibre where you are?
I can stay copper for an increase to £23 a month 70-80MBPS), or for £25 until 2026, go fibre (duh).
Edit, correction: £24 a month for full fibre!
Quobuz Hi-Res Streaming over Lan, Interface Bubble UPnP Android app DLNA / Renderer Sonore Ultrarendu -> Gustard U18 Reclocker -> Najda DSP X/O DAC -> 5 Amps -> 5 way front loaded horn system. Linear PSU's everywhere.
Technics SP-10 / Slate plinth / Ebony armboard / Musical Fidelity FR64s arm / SPU Royal N cart -> Najda ADC etc. Sonos system around the house.