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Post by John on Jan 6, 2016 21:03:54 GMT
I notice we got a number of turntable fans on the forum so I thought it might be good to talk about different approaches to turntable support I think with turntables to get the best out of them their are a number of issues to overcome and each approach has different ways to get over these issues 1) Speed Stability; The Cartridge is always causing friction when it is on the record. This friction is always acting as a force that needs to be addressed to ensure we getting the good sound quality a) Belt drives you mass and inertia ndo overcome this. It also has to deal with a certain amount of belt slippage too. This is why we often see big platters on high end turntables
b) Direct drive. Seems to me the motor is the most important area to address. This is why so much effort is put into modifying something like a 1210. The effort of addressing the power supply seems to pay dividends. Yes it true that it also needs a good platter and bearing like all of the turntables but the major difference is one concentrates on mass the other clean power to the motor c) Idler and rim drives relies on torque this is why on the 401 it has such a powerful motor and the Salvation has a larger platter than usual to give more torque so it maintains speed. The other thing that is helping speed stability is the bearing. The bearing needs to be robust and reduce friction as much as possible. A few turntables have used air bearings and magnetic bearings with the idea to further reduce drag. 2) Vibration: There is a lot of energy both internal and external that a turntable may have to deal with. So good isolation is essential to get the best sound, the idea is the cartridge is maintaining maximum contact at all times. Some solutions are the use of air platforms, better feet, wall shelf's, and other methods that hel reduce vibration and increase stability Next up would be things like tracking cartridge matching to arm and phono stage With arms yet again the bearing seems to be quite important. Here is a good article on the subject www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/armdesign_e.html |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 21:43:32 GMT
The experts at Whathifi think that those in the know are of the view that belt drives offer the best sound quality. Who am I to argue?
To be serious, I suspect all three options are viable and have their own compromises, and it eventually comes down to personal preference. There isn't a "better" way, there are several ways to skin a cat.
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Post by Greg on Jan 6, 2016 22:32:39 GMT
Hmmm, well I had an LP12 followed by an Orb'd Gyro and now very happily use a Garrard 401 and consider it offers better sound compared to my earlier TT's. Actually I was previously so evangelical regarding my Michell vs a Garrard, someone suggested I shut up, get a 401 and see for myself, so I bought a very well used 401 sunk into a big slab of recycled Mohogany chemistry lab worktop and was gobsmacked with the improved performance. Since then, I bought a 401 in best condition and have sunk it into a big slab of Welsh blue slate (Slatedeck, now sadly defunct) and really, I have never looked back.............and in terms of the future, I have not yet sampled (listened to) anything that improves on what I have. This is just my experience. I have quite a few friends who share my view. As Dominic Harper of NWA (North West Analogue) says, 'once you have a properly fettled Garrard 301/401, you have a turntable for life.' Personally I go with that. When considering improvements to my system, the TT is never in the equation as in my mind, that aspect is settled.
To complete the picture, I use my 401 with the latest Audiomods Series 5 arm and an Ortofon Konyrapunkt b cartridge.
With regard to what 'losenotaminute' has said, I have every respect for his take on this, but probably he isn't right IMHO. My take on it all is (considering current technology) an idler system is in the long run the optimum solution, a direct drive second and belt drive very much dribbling behind. YMMV.
Of course, the whole system balance is relevant to the final sound. My phono, pre and power amps are all self built and tweaked according to my comprehension of how the sound presentation should properly be. That is a subjective aspect and I have found what is right for me. Others might not agree although I've not had any challenges on the reproduction to date.
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Post by John on Jan 7, 2016 5:09:29 GMT
A well set up 401 is a glorious TT and you have to spend a lot of money to equal it Idlier and rim drive does seem to be the YMMV way to go for SQ
In terms of performance I tend to see them all good I been very impressed with Martins deck when I heard it but also love the Salvation which is a more cost effective way to achieve this I also heard some very high end belt drives but now we talking serious costs and they have sounded good too.
I heard a 401 with slate and really liked it
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 7:50:08 GMT
The experts at Whathifi think that those in the know are of the view that belt drives offer the best sound quality. Who am I to argue? To be serious, I suspect all three options are viable and have their own compromises, and it eventually comes down to personal preference. There isn't a "better" way, there are several ways to skin a cat. The 'experts' at WHF are nothing of the sort. I think you're right, it is down to personal preference, the sound that you prefer and the actual solution that you own. For me, timing is everything, secondly I prefer a neutral non tonally tilted presentation. So it's direct drive for me. |
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Post by John on Jan 7, 2016 8:15:15 GMT
I think rightly set up all turntables when optimized can sound tonally neutral for me it's more a case of how the turntable is set up
Good turntable design uses different solutions to get to this point
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 7, 2016 8:15:21 GMT
I guess I had too many cheap(ish) belt drives - moving to direct drive just plain sorts the piano&strings-wobbles that I used to suffer from a bit. Which is very important with classical, less so with rock/pop, imo.
Never tried an idler/rim drive although I am curious about them.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 8:22:29 GMT
I think rightly set up all turntables when optimized can sound tonally neutral I don't know, the LP12 has *never* sounded tonally neutral to me, whichever level of modification I've heard. |
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Post by John on Jan 7, 2016 8:30:01 GMT
Yes agree but has it addressed the design issues that belt drive turntables face
So something like an raven ac will have addressed these issues
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 8:30:42 GMT
The experts at Whathifi think that those in the know are of the view that belt drives offer the best sound quality. Who am I to argue? To be serious, I suspect all three options are viable and have their own compromises, and it eventually comes down to personal preference. There isn't a "better" way, there are several ways to skin a cat. The 'experts' at WHF are nothing of the sort. I think you're right, it is down to personal preference, the sound that you prefer and the actual solution that you own. For me, timing is everything, secondly I prefer a neutral non tonally tilted presentation. So it's direct drive for me. I'd hoped the "to be serious" had made it clear that I don't regard Whathifi as experts on anything, other than selling hifi magazines! |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 8:51:06 GMT
I did spot that  |
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Post by DaveC on Jan 7, 2016 9:07:15 GMT
I would love to contribute but I can't find any question in the original post ? However the ultimate turntable for me without doubt is the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn turntable & Cobra tonearm with a Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge Followed by a tie between the SME Model 30 and the Timestep/Technics SP-10MK4 Continuum Turntable Which I believe is now about £160K Clearaudio Cartidge Just under £10K and worth every penny ! SME Model 30 turntable About £30K |
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Post by John on Jan 7, 2016 9:10:19 GMT
I never heard any of the above turntables
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Post by Pinch on Jan 7, 2016 9:13:02 GMT
I'm not at all well placed to comment on what is and isn't good design - I'm no engineer. But my experience is confined more or less exclusively to direct drives, and 1200s/1210s at that. I initially became interested in vinyl playback because, at the time (around 2003) it was still more or less the standard for DJing/mixing (not so any more), and I wanted to learn how to do that. The speed stability of the 1200/1210 is one of the key reasons that it was picked up by the DJing community, since it's essential for mixing, and I listen to a lot of music (classical and dance) which would quickly show up shortcomings in this area. I've no reason to suppose that I couldn't achieve similar results with a well implemented belt-drive, and I imagine I'll pick one up at some point in my life, but the direct-drive Technics really hits the spot for me right now.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 7, 2016 9:21:34 GMT
I had an LP12 for years.
Tried a Technics as it was being raved about and then I heard Martins
So I went Direct Drive, but I chose the sound. The technology doesn't matter to me.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 9:53:54 GMT
The Continuum is the best turntable I've ever heard, bar none. As it should be, of course, in view of its price. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 7, 2016 9:56:44 GMT
By far the best tt I have heard is a Rockport Sirius about 25-30 years ago. It was in the same system as a SME30. The SME30 was playing and sounded fabulous - then swapped to the Rockport. Oh my gosh, it made the SME sound small and constrained. Air bearing, direct drive. Stupidly expensive. www.stereophile.com/turntables/258/#IsRO0qB3Mygs0VWb.97The one I heard was probably a Series 2?  Wow. |
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Post by nrg on Jan 7, 2016 10:40:22 GMT
I was in the same boat as Greg (long term LP12 user)and at the same time in fact, went for a GL99 after the challenge was issued which ultimately blew my Gyro away after a bit of tweaking. However, the experience made me curious so I looked into DD as well and went through a fair number of mediocre decks like the SL120 before discovering the PL-71 and SP10 which IMHO are in a different league. I switch between a number of decks all the time but have recently re-discovered belt drive can sound just as great as an idler or DD. I was lucky to find a good condition twin motor Logic Gemini and it has been an eye opening experience. So IMHO go with whatever deck sound good and forget about the drive technology |
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Post by DaveC on Jan 7, 2016 12:12:05 GMT
By far the best tt I have heard is a Rockport Sirius about 25-30 years ago. It was in the same system as a SME30. The SME30 was playing and sounded fabulous - then swapped to the Rockport. Oh my gosh, it made the SME sound small and constrained. Air bearing, direct drive. Stupidly expensive. www.stereophile.com/turntables/258/#IsRO0qB3Mygs0VWb.97The one I heard was probably a Series 2? Wow. I was going to add the Rockport, there are two used ones for sale right now, but as yet I have never heard one. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 13:46:15 GMT
I have an idler/belt drive - so I guess that's 'none of the above' A Braun PS500 I found in a junk shop over 30 years ago - been going strong ever since apart from the string breaking once or twice, I love it. Before that I had various decks including a Dual and a Garrard - both idler/rim (by my recollection) - both of them basically crap. |
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