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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 20:21:51 GMT
I didn't even know Dual were still going tbh. I know they used different forms of drive over the ranges. Did they ever take a view on what was best when cost was less of a limiting factor?
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 21:16:33 GMT
I didn't even know Dual were still going tbh. I know they used different forms of drive over the ranges. Did they ever take a view on what was best when cost was less of a limiting factor? A few European sites, but I think here is the actual maker's site - www.alfredfehrenbacher.de/Plattenspieler/Produkte/CS-505-4/199.html
Dual were feeling the pinch when CD came along and changed owners a few times I believe. Fans on VE seem to live the old idler models and as I said, the best of these need make no apologies to anyone at all.
Here's my rebuilt hybrid this last Christmas fited with a Rega carbon for auto-change purposes...
Oh, and one of the old Garrards working perfectly with an ADC Phase IV-
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Post by Greg on Feb 7, 2016 21:20:11 GMT
I know cutsie nostalgic retro is the 'in' thing, what with the Mini/Fiat 600 throwbacks and all, but I am at a loss to understand how anyone can find something like the 301 elegant or pleasing to the eye when its close kin design-wise is the Baby Belling oven ubiquitous to students bedsits in the 50s and 60s: I recognise the point you are making and I agree with you to an certain extent. I do not like the appearance of 301's and find them ugly. I also don't understand the desire for the grease bearing version. However, a good condition and clean 401, as mine is, when sunk into a big slab of Blue Welsh Slate in my view has aesthetic appeal, not to mention the sound quality. For me there is also an elliment of nostalgia. When at school, my music teacher used a 401 with SME arm to introduce me to much classical music which was, along with my parents influence, responsible for my love of that music today. No doubt there is better to be had, but my 401 satisfies me and Unlike other components in the system, I have no inclination to change it. I sign up to what Dominic Harper (Nothwest Analogue) says, "A well fettled 401 is a turntable for life". I have listened to many direct drive TT's including well mounted SP10's and heavily upgraded Techy's and on every occasion I have found them rather clinical in presentation and lacking in the emotion of sound I look for. The Garrard 401 has that connection I am looking for in spades IMHO. Of course, one could argue I have a preference for a coloured sound, but I don't think so, and I have no problem if others don't agree. I know what works for me and I'll stick with it.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 21:28:13 GMT
LOL!
Look under the skin to see where the very few pennies went. On the other hand, don't bother.
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Post by Clive on Feb 7, 2016 23:31:00 GMT
It's not at all, but I KNOW these old auto Garrards, have owned most from the Lab 80 and 401 onwards and appreciate how much design flair went into them I presume you mean engineering 'design flair' - from an aesthetic point of view I find most of the Garrards I've seen clumsy and a bit 'plasticky' (for want of a better word) I know cutsie nostalgic retro is the 'in' thing, what with the Mini/Fiat 600 throwbacks and all, but I am at a loss to understand how anyone can find something like the 301 elegant or pleasing to the eye when its close kin design-wise is the Baby Belling oven ubiquitous to students bedsits in the 50s and 60s: That's an individual view you have there. We all have our own history and experience which colours our views. Understanding that not everything thinks or should think your way is a valuable trait. You do seem to have it in for Garrards even though you protest otherwise. I wonder whether your bad Garrard experience has coloured your perspective...just as those with Garrards that sound great no doubt look on Garrards with great affection due to their experience. All human traits I suppose.
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 7, 2016 23:41:07 GMT
If I had to choose between a 301 and 401 on purely aesthetic grounds, I would go for a 301. I have always thought the 401 looks quite horrible. I don't have any views on the styling of any kitchen appliances whatsoever though.
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Barry
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Post by Barry on Feb 8, 2016 0:15:38 GMT
If I had to choose between a 301 and 401 on purely aesthetic grounds, I would go for a 301. I have always thought the 401 looks quite horrible. I don't have any views on the styling of any kitchen appliances whatsoever though. I have never understood your dismissal of the 401 on grounds of looks. I think Walter Marshall did a great job in restyling the '40s look of the 301 to the (very) '60s look of the 401. As to which of the two is better soundwise - I'll leave that to owners of the Garrard decks in question to battle it out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 0:16:36 GMT
You do seem to have it in for Garrards even though you protest otherwise. I wonder whether your bad Garrard experience has coloured your perspective...just as those with Garrards that sound great no doubt look on Garrards with great affection due to their experience. All human traits I suppose. I don't 'have it in' for Garrards; in fact I'm not really much bothered either way and was originally simply responding to someone who clearly misinterpreted a post I made about my experience with ONE Garrard which (as I have explained earlier) was probably knackered when I bought it. However, as the line was pursued and the same misapprehension amplified, I thought it apt to correct that point again and add my own view of the 'design flair' accredited to them by the other poster. This view has nothing to do with the mangled example I had over 40 years ago or their technical performance and is based on my assessment of the visual style of those I've come across over the years; quite frankly I find them a bit dull to look at - and always have done. I am simply expressing an opinion, whether it is shared by others or not is neither here nor there although I am of course aware that it may not be a popular view among devotees of the brand. I do like Marmite though
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Barry
Rank: Trio
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Post by Barry on Feb 8, 2016 0:19:54 GMT
To answer the poll, my EMT 930 is definitely idler/rim drive.
As to my Thorens TD124s, well they use a belt to connect between the motor and the speed change pulley and an idler wheel to connect between the stepped pulley and the rim of the platter. So a hybrid - best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds?
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 8, 2016 0:22:45 GMT
I suppose I just don't like the 60s look Barry. I think it was ahead of its time in design terms actually. I can respect what was done, but I still don't like it!
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Post by John on Feb 8, 2016 4:59:47 GMT
I prefer the look of the 401 over the 301 myself but something like that is just so personal
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Post by MartinT on Feb 8, 2016 6:40:24 GMT
If I had to choose between a 301 and 401 on purely aesthetic grounds, I would go for a 301. I have always thought the 401 looks quite horrible. I don't have any views on the styling of any kitchen appliances whatsoever though. ...and for me it would be the 401. Which just goes to show that we all have different tastes and should be accommodating of other people's points of view.
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Post by Clive on Feb 8, 2016 8:51:17 GMT
My preference is the cream 301 without the optional strobe platter. For me this is the best combination of simplicity and style. I feel the strobe takes the 301 some of the way towards the more blingy look of the 401. I'd rate the 124 alongside the 301 non-strobe for looks, possibly slightly ahead.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 8, 2016 11:44:03 GMT
The 401 did have changes to the motor I believe. I need to find the article next time I get to snoop around in Hifi Dave's loft as he has a few boxes of late 60's magazines and it was in one of these that the 401 being more sensitive to mains issues came to light.
My first proper turntable was a Garrard AP76, which really did seem to be a Friday afternoon job, assuming it hadn't been got at first... Slightly later experiences with an SL95B (similar mech and drive) showed how much better this design could be and in fact a few years ago, I was given an age-glued-up AP76 to play with, which I still have. Once the gummed up parts had been , degreased, cleaned and made to work again, I was stunned how reasonable this machine was and how basically good the sound could be. The arm is flimsy admittedly, but it tracks an AT120E with ease and the sound is lively and 'fresh' with no rumblies to spoil things.
The Autoslim AT6 and 60mk2 may be even cruder, but they work and sound great with a Stanton 500V3 and Ortofon OM Pro - perfect for old singles... The Lab 80mk2 I own is another excellent ancient deck, with a superb drive. the arm looks really agricultural, but the Grado f1+ tracks superbly in it at 1.5g... and it sounds good too with cork mat on top of the rubber original.
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 8, 2016 14:09:14 GMT
I am with you 100%, Clive. The scultured cast top chassis of the Thorens is just beautiful and furthermore, Barry is a bounder and a cad for owning so many of them, when I don't have one.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 8, 2016 14:31:15 GMT
He's more of a bounder for some of his ML gear
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:52:53 GMT
The words What hifi and experts used in the same sentence, surely some mistake? Rockports very impressive and an engineering over statement, but really musical, humm not so sure about that. There is a gent not too far from ourselves who has a collection of such exotica and further up the ladder too especially the £7k UK record weights. Though you do need to have a reinforced floor some of these beasties can weigh upto a 1/4 of a tonn. The continuum I have witnessed on many an occasion, a mightily impressive deck that could dig a road up with its bass response and paint the Ci stein chapel with its sound stage capabilities, a truly amazing sound deck, but yet again musically engaging outside a hifi news review kinda of way not really, however one of the most impressive decks I have listened to without question. Would I own one no, but I know many a person that would checks and balances.
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Barry
Rank: Trio
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Post by Barry on Feb 8, 2016 17:46:45 GMT
I am with you 100%, Clive. The sculptured cast top chassis of the Thorens is just beautiful and furthermore, Barry is a bounder and a cad for owning so many of them, when I don't have one. Guilty - but you do have a rather fine Goldring G99 I found for you! And you have two Zeta arm/Koetsu cartridge combinations, so who's the bounder and cad now? Apropos the 301/401 aesthetics controversy, you are at least being consistent; you prefer the earlier '50s maroon/cream styling of the Leak Troughline II to the black/silver finish of the Troughline III.
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Post by alaska on Feb 8, 2016 17:57:36 GMT
The experts at Whathifi think that those in the know are of the view that belt drives offer the best sound quality. Who am I to argue? To be serious, I suspect all three options are viable and have their own compromises, and it eventually comes down to personal preference. There isn't a "better" way, there are several ways to skin a cat. The 'experts' at WHF are nothing of the sort. I don't want to hijack this thread, but feel I must defend the WHF boys a bit. I once spent a day with Simon the editor and three of his his colleagues. They are very nice guys and do know their stuff. I sensed tremendous frustration from them with regard to the types and quality of products they are forced to review, and with the way they have to do it. Agreed, you would not want to rely only on WHF for your hifi knowledge, but to slag the guys off is a little unfair. The mag is, however, dreadful and getting worse. Having "HiFi" in the title is, in itself becoming increasingly hard to justify.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 18:06:38 GMT
Alaska
While you were at Teddington Lock with Mr Lucas & Co did you par-take in a listening session in the special 'treated' auditioning room by any chance? If so was their 'Reference system' in attendance?
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