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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 19:54:03 GMT
O well the title & Topic do not seem to match.. I would never touch another DD Turntable if they were the last decks on earth .. Belt drives are the way for old Nexus 6. In fact if anyone want a proper Turntable it's quite Easy J.A.Michell
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jan 7, 2016 20:32:44 GMT
I think rightly set up all turntables when optimized can sound tonally neutral I don't know, the LP12 has *never* sounded tonally neutral to me, whichever level of modification I've heard. It does when its in the skip Martin where it belongs (LOL)
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Post by Greg on Jan 7, 2016 21:42:53 GMT
Before that I had various decks including a Dual and a Garrard - both idler/rim (by my recollection) - both of them basically crap. That's a bit of an unqualified sweeping statement is it not? what Dual and Garrard are you referring to?
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Post by John on Jan 7, 2016 21:46:09 GMT
The Garrard 401 is a wonderful deck when put on a slate plinth and the wheels are checked and bearing cleaned and inspected. You need to spend quite a lot to beat it
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Post by Greg on Jan 7, 2016 21:48:56 GMT
O well the title & Topic do not seem to match.. I would never touch another DD Turntable if they were the last decks on earth .. Belt drives are the way for old Nexus 6. In fact if anyone want a proper Turntable it's quite Easy J.A.Michell Well it was a J.A.Michell Orb'd Gyro I rejected in favour of a battered Garrard 401. The Gyro certainly had the looks, but the Garrard absolutely stuffed it in terms of sound performance..........all of course IMHO.....and also, if you don't agree with me, you are completely wrong
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Post by Clive on Jan 7, 2016 22:41:42 GMT
I ditched a Gyrorbe for a 301 on slate...surely the most stunning☺. Where do we place the 124 with its beltlet? The rim drive Salvation is quite possibly the best mid priced (ie not mega bucks) deck in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 4:44:04 GMT
Each to their own i guess cos i ditched the '401' to go back to my Belt drive years ago.
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Post by daytona600 on Jan 8, 2016 15:41:58 GMT
+ 1 - The Continuum is the best turntable I've ever heard, bar none heard this several times in megabucks systems but if i worked till i was 100 still could not afford one vinyl rip from one even sounds good a crappy lap top speakers The Nutcracker s a traditional Christmas favorite so i transcribed side one using the Ortofon A95 mounted on the Swedish Analogue Technologies SAT tone arm on the Continuum Caliburn turntable. The phono preamp is the Ypsilon 16L step up transformer/VPS-100 combo. Digitization was via the Lynx HiLo A/D, D/A converter. The "rumble" you might hear is actually Kingsway Hall, not the turntable. The noise goes away between bands Read more at www.analogplanet.com/content/enoy-side-one-classic-records-45rpm-reissue-nutcracker#FQOd0qUFI5ZZ8EyK.99others i like ( at reasonably sane prices but still circa £ 20K without arm ) grand prix audio - monaco - direct drive Vertere - Record Player RG-1 Reference Groove - belt drive Garrard 501 - Idler Jean Nantais Lenco reference - idler have five at present covering all styles - idler , belt , magnetic tape drive & vacuum platter
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 16:58:42 GMT
Before that I had various decks including a Dual and a Garrard - both idler/rim (by my recollection) - both of them basically crap. That's a bit of an unqualified sweeping statement is it not? what Dual and Garrard are you referring to? Not really - both the Gerrard and the Dual decks I had were crap - I know they were cos I had them and they were both rubbish. However, I didn't say that ALL Garrard and Dual decks are crap because that would be a sweeping statement - just the two I owned that were crap I had the Garrard when I was at college - that would be about 45 years ago - haven't a clue what model it was but the linkages underneath kept jamming and I didn't have the nous to fix them at that time. The Dual was one I had some time in the late 70s when I lived in Holland, it was definitely not top of the range .... about the level of an Aristona (and they were definitely crap) It was prone to wheezing ....
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Post by Greg on Jan 8, 2016 20:29:18 GMT
Thanks for your explanation. A typical budget Garrard TT 45 years ago would possibly be a version of the SP25. Although entry level, many had them and quite a good sound could be obtained from them. This was the TT that spiked my interest which led to a lifetime of involvement in the hobby. I can't comment on the Dual because I have very little knowledge of them although I am sure Dave dsjr could readily comment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 21:05:43 GMT
Thanks for your explanation. A typical budget Garrard TT 45 years ago would possibly be a version of the SP25. Looking at some pics online that looks a likely suspect... It was 2nd hand when I got it - possible from a junk shop or flea market (I spent a lot of time cruising them for tat - better than studying) As I remember it, the linkages were made mostly of pressed metal which was susceptible to bending if anything went wrong, which mine frequently did. Problem was bending them back the right amount so they meshed with what they were supposed to was a bit hit and miss - mostly miss on my part. I was a bit miffed because Garrards were very sought after and I was well chuffed to get one cheap. At that time I didn't know any people who were adept at fixing hifi stuff and of course t' web hadn't been invented so in the end I just gave up; can't remember what became of it.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 6, 2016 19:48:39 GMT
Is there really any best method. Surely it's all down to implementation.
From an engineering point of view the belt drive is easier to make than anything else, and one would suspect easier to make nominally good for minimal cost. Idler drives require more engineering nowse to make good, it would appear, but offer very good speed stability, if not the best noise performance. Direct drives would seem to have the ability to offer the best speed stability, but only for a return on serious engineering investment and electronics work.
Isn't if just a case of picking your poison?
...that said I'm sat hear listening to a Kuzma chassis, with LP12 bearing and platter assembly, driven by a Rega motor, CNC pulley I had knocked up and powered by a 38 watt dual mono, sinewave synthesiser...
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 9:51:12 GMT
Mikmas - PLEASE don't tar ALL Garrards with the same brush. The 301 and 401 were broadcast decks designed for 24/7 running in studios and they did this very well indeed. I still think idler decks add noises and these two Garrards tend to favour the centre mono image, although I readily admit how enjoyable they make vinyl reproduction - I like the now silly money Bastin plinths which used to work so well - and at least you can get them refurbished as you can the TD124.
Other Garrards? I speak from first hand experience as my menagerie currently plays home to an AT6, a 60mk2, a surprisingly good AP76 (with the right cartridge), an 86SB (would have been quiet running when new but the motor mounts have compressed introducing motor noise) and, because I always wanted one, a Zero 100, which had tighter tolerances on the main and tonearm bearings, trip links and so on and this can also sound ok despite all the tonearm ironwork and extra bearings.
I also have three Duals currently. A transit trashed 1214 I rebuilt with new arm and 1216 cast platter, a 601 and my beloved direct driven 701, which is lovely, if sonically smaller-scale than a 'proper' deck. The engineering is far better than the Garrards, which had Plessey bean counters running them sadly, but the motors were too strong on the former two and easily transmit vibration into the platter (heard as a higher pitched hum). Dual fixed this with higher pole motors in much later models but the 601 especially needs a little bit of fettling here and I currently have it coming and going...
I wish Tom Fletcher was still with us, as someone has converted his HyperSpace to rim drive - easy to do as the motor pod is separate. He claims it performs better than the silicon belt normally used - the platter is very heavy and Tom's NAS main bearings last forever...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 10:21:28 GMT
Mikmas - PLEASE don't tar ALL Garrards with the same brush. I didn't - so why are you asking me NOT to? Instead, you might take the time to read my response to Greg above - quote: "... both the Garrard and the Dual decks I had were crap - I know they were cos I had them and they were both rubbish. However, I didn't say that ALL Garrard and Dual decks are crap because that would be a sweeping statement - just the two I owned that were crap "
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 11:58:09 GMT
I was trying to defend the Garrards and Duals you said were crap - and I was trying to be friendly and chatty about it. A lot of good engineering goes into all Duals, even the 505 and the Garrards worked despite Plessey getting in the way - that was what I was clumsily trying to say. Sorry, I'll butt out now - I say too much on forums as it is
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 12:49:40 GMT
I was trying to defend the Garrards and Duals you said were crap - and I was trying to be friendly and chatty about it. .. and I pointed out that I had already pointed out that I didn't say that Garrards and Duals (plural in each case) are crap but that ONE Garrard and ONE Dual (singular in each case) that I owned were crap. Sorry, I didn't realise it would be such a touchy subject ...
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 16:56:36 GMT
It's not at all, but I KNOW these old auto Garrards, have owned most from the Lab 80 and 401 onwards and appreciate how much design flair went into them - and the way they had to count every penny to put the engineering where it really counted - and at the time I thought they did, and as priorities changed, so did the models. Dual were the same but with better tolerances all round and some of their best 1970's models stand very proud today and will easily equal or beat a Lenco or similar IME because of the wider cartridge choice. If I knew what crap decks you'd owned, I could have explained myself better. As you've said, it's all academic now, but apologies if I do have to defend even the lower caste models from their ranges.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 18:25:43 GMT
I haven't heard any of the more expensive Duals but I thought the 505/2 and 503/1 were really poor. Both used those ortofon OM cartridges, so I'm sure that didn't help. The bit extra for a Rega was a no-brainer when you heard the sonic improvement.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 7, 2016 19:37:53 GMT
The Rega 2 wasn't much more then a 505 I agree. Dual did cut some costs as time went on and the 505's needed the dampers cut out of the springs to improve the suspension isolation. Their fixation for low mass tonearms limits what can be fitted and using the stock mat (before other cheap options came along), meant the best the arm could take was an OM20 stylus in the supplied generic OM cartridge - much sweeter tone, but then, the 20 stylus was only twenty five quid! I cannot get any more turntables (and will have to have a sale very soon) but I think a cork mat and old ADC XLM III may be perfect for a 505, later versions of which got the drive noise sorted well and some versions had acceptable plinths too. The last Dual 505's we ever sold had these better plinths, a felt mat and an AT95E I remember.
Did you know the 505 still exists? Looks smart too but I don't know how it sounds in current form.
Sorry everyone. Thread drift and possibly thread crap too, thanks to me. I voted for direct drive myself, as there are some superb ones still out there which come on leaps and bounds (I think) and properly sited, they're silent through the stylus too I feel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 20:19:58 GMT
It's not at all, but I KNOW these old auto Garrards, have owned most from the Lab 80 and 401 onwards and appreciate how much design flair went into them I presume you mean engineering 'design flair' - from an aesthetic point of view I find most of the Garrards I've seen clumsy and a bit 'plasticky' (for want of a better word) I know cutsie nostalgic retro is the 'in' thing, what with the Mini/Fiat 600 throwbacks and all, but I am at a loss to understand how anyone can find something like the 301 elegant or pleasing to the eye when its close kin design-wise is the Baby Belling oven ubiquitous to students bedsits in the 50s and 60s:
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