I have the inside walls of the speakers pointing towards me. In other words, not quite fully toed-in.

www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Mike - A good starting point!

Mike - If you want MORE faff! ........... Try this:-

This speaker placement guide has been posted before. It is used by a number of well respected audio professionals. I am copying it here to help you and others have the ability to use this excellent process and improve your listening pleasure. Follow the steps, listen intently without distractions, and remain focused on the goal. This information was provided courtesy of a true Speaker Master.


To begin you will need a copy of Rob Wasserman's Duets CD or Jennifer Warnes – Famous Blue Raincoat - 24Kt Gold Limited Edition. The track you will use is Jennifer Warnes – “Ballad of the Runaway Horse." It has all the sonic cues to help you make set up decisions.

What you are trying to do in the first two steps is work with the room to get the most extension, most output, most linear bass with even bass pressure throughout the room.


A couple basic rules:
1 - Decisions in the first two steps will be made based on the sound of the bass ONLY.
2 - Always make your final decisions from the listening position even though you will hear most changes while moving the speaker.
3 - You must move the speakers smoothly and evenly. If your floor is carpet, you will need two sets of teflon sliders. If your speakers use spikes, cut out the rubber material inside the Teflon sliders to fit a spike cup in each.

Before you start.....
1 - Position the speakers in an equilateral triangle against the wall.
2 - Toe in the left speaker so that the tweeter points to a spot about 18" behind your head.
3 - Face the right speaker straight ahead.
4 - NEVER move the speaker without music playing. You need to hear the changes to evaluate them.
5 - Once you start moving speakers, correct toe-in from a stopped position only by pivoting on the outside rear spike of the speaker.
6 - Avoid the Dead Zone. This area starts 6-12 inches from the back wall and extends into the room anywhere between 12-24 inches typically. It is dependent on room geometry, furnishings and speaker. Bass will become one note with no power/extension.
7 - Start "The Ballad of the Runaway Horse." Volume should be loud enough to pressurize the room fully. (Be aware that as you continue the process you will likely have to turn the volume down a click at a time - anywhere between 3 and 6 dB is not unusual. Background noise and IM drops and dynamics and output increase as you lock in the correct position).

Part Two:

Step 1: Set the Anchor - What to look for: Your priorities in the step are: 1) Bass output - Is it louder? 2) Bass Extension - Does it go lower? 3) Bass Linearity - Can I hear all the notes?

Start with the left speaker only. While doing your best to maintain toe-in, move straight forward from the wall in a smooth motion. Listen to the bass from Rob Wasserman's bass. As you move be aware of the volume of the bass. If you think you hear the bass output increase, stop immediately. Check that toe-in is correct. At that point listen and ask your questions in order - louder, lower, all the notes. If it sounds good, take a CD case and mark the position.

Repeat the process until you come to the next point of increased output. Ask yourself the same questions as you did on the first stop. Is this one obviously better? If you are not sure, mark the front of the speaker with another CD case and bring the speaker back to your first marked point. Listen evaluate and then move to the front spot and do the same. Mark the better of the two spots.

Repeat this process until you reach the limit of allowable intrusion into the room. You should have one spot that you feel is better than the others. Move the speaker slightly in each direction to see if you can improve that point - it will be less than 1/2" and if there is an improvement, you'll hear it easily. From that speaker you should have more powerful and extended bass than ever in that room. From this point forward, you will not move this speaker at all - other than toe-in/toe-out or rake. Once you have confirmed toe-in, mark the speaker position with 1" painters tape all the way around the base. Be precise.

If you are having trouble just start over. This process is repeatable. The spots don't move. It may just take some getting used to.

Step 2 - Close the Gate: What to look for: Your priority here is to match the bass in the right speaker to the left and to the room.

Toe in the right speaker to match the physical toe in of the left. From the listening position, Jennifer Warnes will appear as if she is fully in the left speaker. While this step involves making bass decisions only, we will use her voice to define the range in which we will look. Begin to slide the speaker forward. At some point, JW will pop from the left speaker to an area just left of center. When this happens, mark the back of the speaker. Keep coming forward until she moves past the center and starts right. Mark the front of the speaker. The distance between the tape marks (minus the base length) should be 8-10 inches, give or take.

Now we go back to listening to the bass. This is very important. As we assess bass pressure it is critical to understand that is not the same as bass imaging. We are looking for even bass pressure side to side. When that happens, the imaging will place Wasserman behind and slightly right. If you key on the imaging instead of the pressure you'll go mad!

Return to the rear tape mark and begin sliding the speaker forward. Ask yourself the same questions as before, using the same cues to stop. Now comes the tough part. Lean left, then lean right and feel the bass pressure. You may want to get up and step a full step left and a full step right from the listening position to help you. Where is the pressure coming from? Still left? If so mark the spot and continue forward. Notice the increments within which we are working are getting smaller and smaller. Keep coming forward stopping on the potential spots until the pressure is even. When you are on the spot, the noise floor will drop greatly, dynamics will pop out of black and the bass will appear to increase in pace. Think alignment. Until you hit this spot the two speakers bass wave launch of common transients is blurred in time. Getting on the right spot aligns them. As with the first speaker, check toe in and move slightly (this time less than a 1/4" in all directions). As a last check make sure both speaker bases are parallel to the floor side to side.

That's the end of step 2. If you can get to this point you should have better sound than 98% of the speaker set ups out there!

You might want to try and do this a few times to get the feel of it. It's like anything you do - the more practice the easier it becomes.

Remember too that if you get stuck you can always go back to the step before. Chances are the step before is not right - that's why you're stuck.

At this point set toe in and rake the same with each speaker though ultimately they may be different based on your room.

Lastly, a tape measure is for historical record only. Do not use it to set up the speakers. What the speaker sees in the bass acoustically is almost never the same as what your eye (tape measure) sees.

Step Three:

The next two steps are harder than the first two. In the first two we got the bass to work with the room and with each other. In the next two we will take as much of the negative aspects of the room out of the equation as we can.

After each movement always check to see that you have not lost bass lock between speakers/room. If you do you must reestablish it before continuing. (Remember bass lock is bass pressure, not bass imaging) Without bass lock you cannot make proper decisions in steps 3 and 4.

A few reminders and new information before moving on:.

Make sure the speaker is always firmly on the floor (sliders). No rocking allowed.
Always toe in/toe out from the outside rear spike only.
Moving the speaker in or toeing in typically increases warmth. Too much warmth is thick and honky.
Moving the speaker out or toeing out typically increases detail and openness. Too much detail is thin and bright.

In step 3 we are first going to establish distance apart. We are going to use the size of Jennifer Warnes mouth, not her throat and not her chest. This part is fairly simple. Her mouth should be 3-4 inches across.

Make sure both speakers are toed in the same amount (crossing 12-18 inches behind your head, toed only using the outside rear spike) and that when they are you have bass lock and Jennifer Warnes positioned in the center.

Unless her mouth is now 3-4 inches across you will need to move the right speaker only. Which way you choose does not matter. Usually, because in is warmer we choose in. Move the speaker about 1 inch on a straight line toward the left speaker. If you got the first two steps right 1 inch should make a very large change. (Make sure you still have bass lock and check toe in.) If you have moved the correct direction, Jennifer’s mouth will get smaller. If you have moved the wrong direction, it will get bigger. Why? Think of each speaker’s image as a large circle. If you pull the circles too far apart Jennifer gets too big with a hole in the middle. If you get too close together, the circles overlap too much and Jennifer becomes too big. When you hit the right spot, the tonal balance should also be better. But get size right.


Once that is done, we move on to toe in and toe out. This will fine tune what we just did. You will need two people for the first part of this step if you are using sliders. Having a second from here on also makes many of the adjustments easier – one to move and one to listen.
First, remove all the spike knobs. Wearing soft shoes, place your feet on the rear spikes so the speaker cannot slide. Tip it back and have your partner remove the front sliders. Now go to the front of the speaker and repeat in the other direction.
Next we will make sure the speakers are level. Place a level on the base between the two rear spikes. Lift the speaker off the front spikes. Adjust the rear spikes as little as possible, but make the plate level. When you drop the speaker, it may rock back and forth. Correct by using the front spike(s) only to make it solid.
Now listen to Jennifer Warnes. Move your head to the left and listen to the left speaker. Move to the right and listen to the right speaker. Do the speakers sound the same? Does one sound better than the other? Leave the one that sounds best. Toe in/ toe out the other to change the sound in the direction of the better speaker. Need to be more open – toe out. Need to be warmer – toe in. Repeat this process until you have a smooth transition and both speakers sound the same. There is a good chance that toe in amounts will not be exactly the same when you are done.

Step Four:

Lastly we’ll do rake. Rake is nothing more than vertical toe in/toe out.

To check where you are, have someone wearing soft sole shoes stand behind the left speaker placing their feet at the back corners (on the rear spikes) of the base so it can't move. By tilting the speaker slightly back from the top front, the person in the listening chair can hear if the two speakers properly align. If they appear to get worse, repeat on the other side and raise the front spikes until both speakers are the same. Most spikes are finely threaded. Don’t be afraid to be precise.

Now ask yourself if the stage height/decay sounds like it's where it should be. It will likely be low. Remove your listening chair and move your head toward the floor. The most integrated sound will likely be somewhere between your knees and the floor. What we are going to do is bring that up to your listening position.

Use the tilt test to find the range with the left speaker. When it sounds like it is in the right position, count the turns on the spike as you raise them to hold that position. Jennifer’s mouth should be about 5’ to 5-1/2’ off the floor.
Next raise the right speaker the same number of turns. Using the tilt test, fine tune until they match sonically. When that happens the speakers should relax and open up.

Revisit toe in and toe out. How is the tonal balance of the entire image. Would you like it warmer or more detailed. If so, toe the left speaker the sonic direction you would like to go. Match the movement on the right speaker? Better?

Revisit rake to make sure the speakers remain properly raked. At this point adjustments will be within 1/16 to 1/32 of a spike turn, sometimes less.

Lastly make sure you haven’t fallen off bass lock. If all has gone well you should have a rich full sounding tonal balance with good, not etched detail, and a wide deep soundstage that decays effortlessly into dark analog black.

This set up process takes a couple of days to teach and do for the first time. People get better with making decisions the more sets they do. Speaker placement can be difficult but it almost always has more to give if you are willing to work for it.
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Thanks SteveC and MartinT

Loving the sounds even though there is something not quite there.
I'm hearing subtly different versions of the album playlist which I can bear
Cream - Wheels of fire was ok but not right.
Bajofondo Tango Club was fabulous
Rick Springfeld - Karma is also fabulous
Currently peaking at 78db, TAD setting 147. With all that detail it seems louder

Slightly bigger space between the speakers and the room is filled like never before

Research into Steve's info will help me. Cardas first

Visit from Doctor Tony, @tonyc week after next will almost certainly sort it or at least give me pointers on how to tweak the balance / s with the right speaker 2 metres from glass french windows and left more space and a sofa. Maybe some major changes to come....

No Jules. All this from the existing set up

The difference is certainly like a kit change though.
Really glad I did it

I didn't agree with any of those positional diagrams. I start with an isosceles triangle and tweak manually until it sounds right.

Speakers away from walls, listening position away from walls wherever possible.

Great!

Surprised I didn't have a CD of Captain Beefheart's Strictly Personal

Wondering how to sample
Duh
I have the LP !
So connected the Technics PSU and VIDA Phono stage to the mains, then the convoluted path of Analogue/Digital 5 quid converter box to Toslink and into the back of the TAD and got a pretty good sound
Yes I know totally unbalanced but good - enough to get me to buy the CD as well.
Must compare this LP set up to the CD and work out what I do in the future

Had to play all my Caravan albums again

Sound has taken a noticeable step up since last play in January (that long ago)
CD treatment, upgraded RTZ cables and the recent Tacima filter making the difference.

Instruments even more separated, singing much clearer so the words become even evident.
As a result I have become more of a words in music punter

Even more music