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Post by Tim on Jun 5, 2023 14:56:51 GMT
A couple suggested I slow down a little Slowing down is good
I've got the same amp and 2 DAC's I had over 10 years ago, I've not changed an interconnect or cable for just as long and still mainly listen to my own FLAC files. I prefer to just play toons . . . but don't ask me how many computer bits I've bought during the same period
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 5, 2023 15:04:04 GMT
Listening to some old prog favorites like Thick of a Brick and Red today and are amazed how the sound is transformed after that simple IFI LAN iSilencer in my WiFi extender! The feeling is that I now want to turn up the volume much more since the sound is more natural and not shouty/sibilant, as I now realize it was earlier. The term Analogue is what comes to mind now. It also sounds like my wall materials now are made out out velvet, like the sound is much more absorbed? It is like the sound is no-longer trying to impress with its resolution but instead the resolution is just there but no-longer in my face. It is now embarrassing to realize how wrong I have been when I have claimed that it sound really good... This makes me much more humble to the fact that I still have A VERY long way to go! But it sounds amazing now I wonder how many times I need to re-discover all my favorite albums before I am "done"... Next step will probably be some door stoppers and those gel cushions that drummers use, for my equipment, which you have recommended for me. I keep coming back to favourite albums and finding more and more Its like some sort of wonderful dream
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Post by MartinT on Jun 5, 2023 16:19:17 GMT
I was listening to The Baker Gurvitz Army album just the other day and marvelling at how much better it sounds today compared with the murky horror I had on vinyl all those years ago. It's even in hi-res so you can feel Ginger Baker's drumming!!! open.qobuz.com/track/59482429
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 5, 2023 16:23:19 GMT
I was listening to The Baker Gurvitz Army album just the other day and marvelling at how much better it sounds today compared with the murky horror I had on vinyl all those years ago. It's even in hi-res so you can feel Ginger Baker's drumming!!! open.qobuz.com/track/59482429It is on now! Not really familiar with it. Thanks!
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 5, 2023 16:31:56 GMT
I was listening to The Baker Gurvitz Army album just the other day and marvelling at how much better it sounds today compared with the murky horror I had on vinyl all those years ago. It's even in hi-res so you can feel Ginger Baker's drumming!!! open.qobuz.com/track/59482429It is on now! Not really familiar with it. Thanks! I can tell already now that this is amazing! What an fun mix with the drums so prominent. Can anyone listen to this without doing some air drumming for themselves?
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Post by MartinT on Jun 5, 2023 16:46:01 GMT
...and recorded in 1975 when I was 17.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 8:36:10 GMT
I like thinking about why the sound gets improved to better understand what I should do next. Of course I can just listen to your suggestions, that has been thru these things already, which I also do and really appreciate! But still, it is interesting to try to compute what is actually happening, I find. Since I now feel that I get a more "analogue" sound, after my last digital noise clean-up step, and not so much more resolution and soundstage any longer. To me that must mean that I am now much closer to the "real" thing? (of-course every improvement step is a step closer... ) When I started cleaning up the digital noise I got more of everything. More details more accurate soundstage more black background... But my brain still clearly noticed that it was very unnatural/fake and there was still something that made it artificial sounding. I did not realize this until now when it took a step in the natural/analogue direction, instead of giving me more... My brain now seem to agree that the sound is more real and believable which I interpret as analogue. I realize that I probably have about 100 steps more until it gets there truly... To me, it feels like I am getting closer and can maybe start focus on other things in the analogue domain since the majority of the noise is now suppressed. Not saying that it still can be MUCH more suppressed but maybe there is not soo much to gain here any longer (for cheap), compared to what I can do in other areas.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 6, 2023 8:45:17 GMT
In general, you are right. Early improvements tend to highlight detail, impact and soundstage. As you climb the ladder of improvements, what you notice is that everything becomes more fluid and lifelike, every note has 'shape' and timbre. Sometimes more resolution leads to harshness and then you need to look at supports, power, cables, grounding. Remember that digital noise does not generally manifest as analogue noise, it's more a degradation that creates harshness.
When your system is performing really well, music just pops at you and you can be startled by things that are almost unnaturally vivid!
You're also right to give attention to the analogue domain, too. You will always need a power amp and speakers or headphones. In the case of the speakers, there's room interaction, too.
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Tobias
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Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 8:54:00 GMT
In general, you are right. Early improvements tend to highlight detail, impact and soundstage. As you climb the ladder of improvements, what you notice is that everything becomes more fluid and lifelike, every note has 'shape' and timbre. Sometimes more resolution leads to harshness and then you need to look at supports, power, cables, grounding. Remember that digital noise does not generally manifest as analogue noise, it's more a degradation that creates harshness. When your system is performing really well, music just pops at you and you can be startled by things that are almost unnaturally vivid! You're also right to give attention to the analogue domain, too. You will always need a power amp and speakers or headphones. In the case of the speakers, there's room interaction, too. Thank you so much MartinT. I still need such confirmation since I still don´t feel comfortable to trust what I experience! Yeah, I have to start looking at interior things that can defuse/dampen sounds, that still fits a living room and has a WAF.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 9:04:17 GMT
I also want to be really clear that I realize that the DAC will make a massive improvement, in most areas. (despite me creating the "Is the DAC overrated" thread...)
This is overly expensive in my current setup, and not really fitting my current budget, but this review from yesterday got me more exited to buy a DAC than ever before! To me, there is something about the Weiss brand that just pushes the right buttons for me. (yes, it is all about synergy and what type of sound you like. But still, some brands appeal to some people more that others)
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 9:40:18 GMT
Another very interesting reflection in my system is that I now listen much louder without that sound appearing to be louder.
I see, on the volume, that I play louder but since it sound less shouty now it actually feels that the volume is not so loud...
The very welcome side effect of this is that the dynamics are then much improved since I am actually cranking the volume. Drums and bass are now physically felt more.
I love it! I am now enjoying Neil Young - Harvest and I have never heard it this amazing before.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 6, 2023 10:03:03 GMT
Does the Weiss DAC204 have remote controlled digital volume? If not, it would be a non-starter for me.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 10:16:03 GMT
Does the Weiss DAC204 have remote controlled digital volume? If not, it would be a non-starter for me. No, it doesn´t have volume. One more finding after being lost in music this morning. The albums are shorter now!!! For every album I have played yesterday and today I always get very surprised when it suddenly stop playing. I then have to confirm on the mobile that the whole album has actually been played... I guess I am getting much more lost in the music than ever before. I know you have talked about this MartinT (and probably others), that digital can actually sound very analogue. I now think I start to get the first taste of this but without that vinyl noise. The added dynamics, that is something that vinyl people (I wish I was one of them! but I never got into vinyl and went with CD instead) say is a big part of vinyl (but also part of the mastering i believe), could be that they are also able to play louder, whiteout it actually sounding louder, since they don´t have that sibilance/sharp sound that the digital noise can bring?
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Post by julesd68 on Jun 6, 2023 13:32:18 GMT
I actually have zero sense of nostalgia for the analogue sound whatever that is - what I want is superb digital. I actually get way more in terms of dynamics from my digital streaming system than I ever did with my vinyl set up.
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Post by mattspl on Jun 6, 2023 14:23:23 GMT
I’ve been enjoying Dac direct to active speakers for a long time now. Weiss have always appealed to me too, but I’d need the much more expensive ones with volume control which are too expensive for me.
I’m 99% streaming now too, having been purely cd for many years and venturing to YouTube for convenience and finding new artists. I now go between Spotify and YouTube.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 16:33:14 GMT
This became a long post but I hope someone is interested enough to read it This is probably already said by someone somewhere...But hopefully this is a clear write up that potentially helps someone else to understand some basic concepts that I now think I understand? I have to share a thought that is emerging in my head. For some context I will give some background information about how I got here. Since I now have kept my cheap streamer/dac/pre combo all the time, as a baseline, and then added different noise suppression gears step-by-step, I have come to realize what is happening that I think can explain some weird things that I have found hard to understand or explain. I knew (or at least I was convinced) before entering this forum that noise in the digital domain seem to have a big impact on the dac clock and causes it too not run perfectly (drift). I first started to understand this concept when Hans Beekhuyzen explained Why digital circuits influence the sound quality and then I also listened to two podcasts where two different manufacturers talked about the same things: Why isn´t digital audio simply a matter of ones and zero´s and Mark Jenkins goes deep into digital audio. One thing that is said in these podcast´s is how amazing a simple dac can sound behind a very expensive streamer (that isolates the noise). Then I also saw the Alpha Audio Switch blind test video and here I got a good understanding for how they test. After having consumed all this very convincing information I felt that I had to try something! Somewhere in the middle of all this I also came in contact with people like MartinT who helped convince/explain that this could be true. I implemented things in this order: 1. Netgear gs105e with cheap amazon recommended CAT8 cables. The switch was selected based on the switch blind test above2. Ifi Ipower X Power Supply for the above switch. This one they recommended in the switch blind test above. For some reason, that I don´t remember, they said a good switch mode PS was preferred for switches event though normally linear power supply is preffered.3. WiFi Extender (the cheapest one I could find. TP-link something...) This is to physically disconnect ethernet from the dirty ethernet source.4. IFI LAN iSilencer This one is installed in the WiFi extender to fight the power noise from the extender.
My setup is explained in my signature. The difference from step 0-4 is monumental, even with my cheap streamer/dac/pre combo, or maybe more accurately, because of my cheap streamer/dac/pre. The cool thing I realized (which you already knew) is that depending on how much of the noise you manage to suppress different things happens. In the beginning you get more of things (details, soundstage, imaging, black background...) since you suppress the majority of the noise pretty quick. But it seems your brain still isn´t convinced since the clock is still drifting (since there is more noise) and the timing is still not perfect. Once you manage to suppress enough of noise you start to affect/improve the dac´s timing so much that it starts to reveal what it is capable of and it starts getting as "Analogue" sounding as it can become (within its limitations). Ok, let´s now say that my conclusion above is correct...? To me, based on pure logic, this should mean that if you start to play around with ethernet cables into your streamer, those cables will make your system sound differently depending on where in this noise cleanup path you are!!! (ok, many of you probably knew or realized this already) What I am saying is that the same ethernet cable, between the exact same components, can cause your system to sound VERY different depending on how dirty your ethernet signal is that goes into that cable. I have seen this in other forums where people that try the same Supra Ethernet cable (just an example) come to totally different conclusion: (this has always been troublesome for me to "accept") -one guy says that it gets more detailed but it is harsh sounding. (to me, he has too much dirty signal going into that cable) -the other guy says that the same cable made it more analogue sounding. (to me, he had less noise and is closer to have "everything" removed) If you agree that this is to some degree correct, then I start to understand a lot of controversy around cables (all sorts of cables even?) since we are all on different noise levels and it might not have anything (or at least not so much) to do with what gear we are running or our gear synergy. Any thoughts or comments on this would be very much appreciated! If I got something completely wrong, and does not match your findings, please tell me.
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Post by mattspl on Jun 6, 2023 17:27:32 GMT
Hi Tobais,
You’re right about the noise. It is so important to a system’s performance to remove all the noise possible. I only really made good progress sorting my systems noise last year after lots of guidance on this forum.
A lot of the methods of noise reduction are somewhat controversial around many Hifi forums and enthusiasts and I feel they are missing out greatly because of this.
I too noticed the great effect of an interconnect cable change once I’d removed noise from the system, where previously an interconnect change would only yield a small change.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 6, 2023 18:07:17 GMT
Hi Tobais, You’re right about the noise. It is so important to a system’s performance to remove all the noise possible. I only really made good progress sorting my systems noise last year after lots of guidance on this forum. A lot of the methods of noise reduction are somewhat controversial around many Hifi forums and enthusiasts and I feel they are missing out greatly because of this. I too noticed the great effect of an interconnect cable change once I’d removed noise from the system, where previously an interconnect change would only yield a small change. Yeah, that is exactly my feeling. It is just nuts that there is basically nothing on internet that supports the theory that removal of noise is utterly important to your streaming quality. Everything points in the exact opposite direction and it took me years to change my mind, in the right direction... You always end up on the measurement-first focused sites, that measures the wrong things, whenever you google . I find that very hard to swallow, that there could be so much misinformation about technical facts in 2023.
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