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Post by MartinT on May 31, 2018 9:54:33 GMT
I keep reading comments along the lines of "I can't listen to digital for any length of time" or "digital doesn't sound musical" and I wonder what enthusiasts are listening to that generates such comments.
Are you one of the dissatisfied or do you listen happily to digital sources? I am not asking about analogue here, it's more about whether you can enjoy music from digital sources or whether you dislike those formats, and what it is about them that you dislike.
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Post by MartinT on May 31, 2018 10:02:45 GMT
I used to be a vinyl-first person because, at the time, LPs always sounded best. However, since I bought a Sony SCD-1 and more recently the Ayre C-5xe, my digital front end has matched and then surpassed (mostly) record playback. For classical, I completed the move some time ago as I vastly prefer the CD/SACD format for the genre due to the lack of surface noise. For modern music, it's been a slower migration as I just wasn't bothered much with the format. Even more recently, I have raised my Spotify playback quality to the point where it sounds as excellent as CD playback, to the point where I have complete evenings of listening solely to Spotify.
Nowadays, I realise that I play very little vinyl and even much of that is digitally originated.
For me, the answer to the question has long been "of course digital can deliver music".
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Post by MikeMusic on May 31, 2018 10:39:59 GMT
I heard one of the first Sony CD players into the country
Appalling noise. Horrid
I listened to LPs and reel to reel.
Many years later one of the guys on CIX was kindly giving away a NAD CD player for postage.
Plugging it in at work where I listened while working it was fine.
Comparing CD to Vinyl the vinyl always had it, but CD and laterly streaming caught up with accessories and mods
So close now to the point where CDs and streaming win out as easier and quicker than vinyl.
That is why I hardly ever listen oto LPs now
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 10:51:41 GMT
Time for the real world to wake up and smell the coffee.
Analogue tape masters are fabulous (done correctly), digital masters are also fabulous (again of done correctly)
The differences come in the TRANSFER from one medium to another. We use an Studer A820 in our studio along with a CORRECTLY set up pro tools rig with correct mains conditioning and quality.
Both produce stunning results, some artists prefer tape others prefer digital for different reasons both are excellent.
Now the thing with analogue is simple, if you have listened to this for a long period of time say 15 years plus you will always prefer the sound of vinyl, doesn't mean you do not like digital it is just your preferred medium of choice.
And vice versa with digital.
There will always be side takers on this matter, though it is really simple, you listen to what YOU prefer however digital is more than up to the job.
One listen at Munich was enough to tell you that many TT's were trying ape old school poor high end cd players and failing badly lol
Why worry, just enjoy your collection they way you want to.
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Post by Slinger on May 31, 2018 11:36:34 GMT
As pretty much stated above, it doesn't matter what the playback medium is if you don't start out with a decent product. I'm happily listening to an upsampled FLAC at the moment, and it sounds as good, if not better than CDs I've played through this system. Eventually, I plan to get my deck set up again, which should be interesting as I haven't played any vinyl for five or six years, despite having a ton of it.
Ona side note, I don't use Pro Tools, I use Ableton at home, but many of the plugins are released in both formats. There are loads of "Tape Emulation" type plugins for DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) software, which are supposed to bring "distortion analogue warmth" to your recordings, as well as analogue-type settings on 'mastering' plugins.
I voted yes, obviously, because the digital I've got playing at this precise moment does sound great, even if it is Marillion.
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Post by ChrisB on May 31, 2018 13:17:45 GMT
I voted that I don't care which format I listen to because I have always felt that having access to the music in whatever form is more important than the way in which it is delivered or, when it comes down to it, the quality of the delivery.
My creed for many years: Low-fi is better than no-fi.
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Post by MartinT on May 31, 2018 13:49:31 GMT
My voting choices are not really mutually exclusive, that's what comes of squeezing it in between other work.
My o/p question stands: does digital deliver music or is it inherently not musical?
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Post by julesd68 on May 31, 2018 14:19:00 GMT
Inherently not as musical as analogue to me.
I only use Spotify as a sampler of new recordings.
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Post by MikeMusic on May 31, 2018 15:09:36 GMT
Come and visit Jules
See what you hear here
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Post by MartinT on May 31, 2018 15:52:09 GMT
Ditto, Jules  |
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Post by Stratmangler on May 31, 2018 17:54:48 GMT
I voted that I don't care which format I listen to because I have always felt that having access to the music in whatever form is more important than the way in which it is delivered or, when it comes down to it, the quality of the delivery. My creed for many years: Low-fi is better than no-fi. I'm with you with this one, Chris, and I've ticked the appropriate box. I mainly stream locally stored digital files, with BBC iPlayer and currently Tidal standard coz it was free for 3 months (I'll be switching back to Spotify premium when the 3 months is over). I do enjoy it when I play records, and my vinyl setup sounds really good, but it's the digital side of things that does the donkey work.
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Post by Chris on May 31, 2018 18:27:58 GMT
It delivers
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 22:18:58 GMT
I have said I don’t care which format, but I certainly listen to digital more. On some music I’d argue it sounds better on Vinyl, but it’s not unlistenable via digital.
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Post by Clive on May 31, 2018 23:26:01 GMT
Getting digital to sound great is almost as difficult as getting vinyl to sound great though the cost is lower.
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Post by John on Jun 1, 2018 3:56:58 GMT
I moved to pc audio more quickly than others I love how much access I have to music. For me a serious source but also think vinyl is a serious source. The trick to good digital is keeping that signal as pure as you can
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Post by MartinT on Jun 1, 2018 6:43:17 GMT
Getting digital to sound great is almost as difficult as getting vinyl to sound great though the cost is lower. Yes, I'd agree with that. It requires a lot of attention and the oft-heard mantra "digits is digits" is simply not true when it comes to digital audio playback. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 1, 2018 11:19:17 GMT
100% it can and does sound great, but as with anything the mastering is key.
One issue I have always had with this argument is what are you comparing? Some die-hard 'stuck in time musically' analogue fans, who compare a well mastered 70s album to a CD with that same music transferred to digital often use that as a yard stick, which is rather blinkered. But as they rarely listen or discover anything new, they are unlikely to experience just how good it can be. It's overcoming a mindset and some curmudgeonly audiophiles can be rather stubborn regarding 'computers' playing music
As for it being as hard to get right as vinyl, I agree in part with that, but a lot depends on the ability of the end user. I find it harder to set a turntable up, than I do building a music server, but for sure it's a lot more than just ones and zeros. I have been a file based audio convert for over 7 years now, but I'm also reasonably agnostic if the music is good. I just prefer the convenience of playing files, the wealth of music available and the very modest outlay required to achieve exceptional results.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 1, 2018 12:42:48 GMT
I would say that streaming is by far the easiest to use, but getting digital replay to sound excellent needs quite a lot of attention. Once it's done, then performance (unlike a turntable) should remain consistent.
All of these things were necessary:
- extremely low jitter S/PDIF board
- supports & damping
- power supplies & supercaps
- cables
- upsampling & timing settings in the Pi
- general noise reduction
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Post by Slinger on Jun 1, 2018 12:44:27 GMT
The more people who "get it right" and share how they have done it the easier it is for the rest of us. To extend the vinyl analogy, when you compare the almost infinite combinations provided by decks, cartridges, arms, and phono stages against the much less cluttered digital market it makes sense that getting digital right is a much easier process to pass on. As Tim said, it can also be a lot less expensive. I've seen £25k decks, but I've yet to see a £25k Raspberry Pi. External DACs can be expensive, but they don't need to be. A good DAC can still cost a lot less than a decent phono amp. As I've said before, I wish I'd bought a Pi a lot sooner. I'm much happier setting up and hacking software than carts and arms. This is how I think of the comparison. It's not perfect, but it's not meant to be. Cabling is obviously common to both setups unless you want to compare the tonearm wiring with a digital cable; either coax or optical. Some phono amps and some DACs can benefit from an external power supply so that is excluded from my comparison. | Analogue | Digital | | Deck & Arm | Pi | | Cartridge | Software | | Phono amp | DAC |
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Post by julesd68 on Jun 1, 2018 12:47:15 GMT
Come and visit Jules See what you hear here Mike, you know I love your Isis cdp. It's superb. But I do think that I would be most likely to prefer a really high-end turntable set-up of my 'taste' in your system. The Technics certainly isn't on the same level as the Isis IMO. |
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