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Post by ChrisB on Apr 3, 2018 22:09:18 GMT
My Career As A Hi-Fi Industry ShillIt's been a failure! I have never been asked to promote a product by anyone. No-one. Not by a hi-fi dealer, distributor, manufacturer or importer. Nor, for that matter by anyone working in any other field of business. If I were to be asked, I would say no - no matter what the incentive offered might be. That's just the way I am. If I want to buy something, I will seek it out and I do not expect to be 'sold at'. I frequently do whatever I can to resist being the target of sales-people in almost everything I buy. A few times, I've walked out of shops before a sale has been concluded rather than give them my contact details. One of the reasons I started The Audio Standard with John and Martin is that I got fed up with the commercialisation of forums I used. As a forum member, I have always given my opinion and related my experiences to other members for their interest and information and I get the same in return. I help people when I can and they help me. That's what TAS is for - it always has been and always will be.
When we started TAS, we were clear that we would not profit financially from it and nor, as far as we could manage, would anyone else. In an administrative and moderation role, I have always taken a hard line with over-zealous promotion of product - ask Mr Brook or Mr Nangle and they will surely confirm. My 'tin of spam' image is never far away.We all post about what we know and do. And that is important. I've never owned an Arcam amp for example, so you're not likely to see me write much about them, but on the other hand, I own a Radford, so the opposite is quite naturally true. Just because you write enthusiastically about your latest purchase that happens to be unusual or expensive, or both, it does not make you the paid emissary of an evil hi-fi industry master criminal. So What's The Problem Then?
There was an inference made yesterday that people are shilling products on TAS. It's clear to me that this is utter bollocks. But I'm willing to be proven wrong and if I am, then I promise that I will do something about it. So Greg if you have evidence to offer, then I would like to know about it. The same goes for anyone else - if you know something then tell me. Do it by PM if you like. However, I want evidence not supposition. It's time to put up or shut up.If it is going on, then obviously no-one is going to admit to participation, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't believe I am the only member here who would refuse to promote a product for an incentive, so if people are being approached, then surely someone will have something to share?The Business ModelI fully accept that a business might do something like this to artificially boost sales and that it might be something appropriate to maybe car sales or expensive audio gear in a highly competitive market. But hang on a minute - this latest discussion has been over something that costs less than £150. Now, I agree, as I am sure most right minded people would, that a hundred and fifty quid is a hell of a lot of money to pay for a fuse. Personally, I'm not able to envisage any circumstances where I would choose to make that expenditure. But...In the scheme of things, a hundred quid is bugger all really. Even if the dealer was receiving even as much as 75% of that as profit (and he most assuredly is not) then why would he bother? Really. Do you think anyone would trouble themselves to set this up for that sort of return? Your shill would need to be bloody effective for anyone to get rich at that game! As I said above, I think the whole thing is utter bollocks, but perhaps someone might put me right and explain how exactly this business model works?
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2018 5:09:29 GMT
We all post about what we know and do. And that is important. I've never owned an Arcam amp for example, so you're not likely to see me write much about them, but on the other hand, I own a Radford, so the opposite is quite naturally true. So very well put and about time this issue was tackled. Thank you, Chris. I never have and never will be in the pocket of a dealer. I have also paid for every single thing I have kept and have returned all other loan equipment. As to the above, you have it in one. I only speak of equipment I have experience of and have often said I cannot comment on a particular component as I've not heard one. This is a forum about sharing experiences and best practice, as well as sharing great music. Long may it remain the most product neutral of forums. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 6:06:09 GMT
I beg to differ - Best practice does not involve fitting fuses that do not meet BS standards to mains plugs.
Yes, it is wearing thin, but it needs to be said.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2018 6:15:12 GMT
Yes, it is wearing thin, but it needs to be said. Very bloody thin. You say nothing of those DIYers who run exposed 1kV HT all over their valve creations, or have open chassis with exposed mains, and still share their experiences with us. Is that because there is no kite-mark for such practices? Let's not get distracted from Chris's main points. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 4, 2018 6:49:13 GMT
This is a forum where most of us want to share our enthusiasm for getting the most out of music.
I certainly do.
Music comes first. Kit is only the enabler.
Most of my purchases have been 2nd hand and there are no more of them to be had.
When I find items that make a difference I want to share with like minded people and I will grab any ideas that will improve my listening.
Reasonable questioning to check is fine. (Real) humour is fine.
Negativity and deliberate, argumentative disruption is only of help to the unpleasant and the troublemakers.
Pejorative comments insinuating falsehoods are tiresome and unwelcome for all except those with their nasty ways and/or badly hidden agendas.
TAS is non commercial, to the point where some dealers won't even join let alone stay.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 7:24:01 GMT
Yes, it is wearing thin, but it needs to be said. Very bloody thin. You say nothing of those DIYers who run exposed 1kV HT all over their valve creations, or have open chassis with exposed mains, and still share their experiences with us. Is that because there is no kite-mark for such practices? Let's not get distracted from Chris's main points. Yes, but you don’t “promote” that here. 1kV is still deemed low voltage as far as standards go. I don’t see any specific shilling going on, but I do see a few enthusiastic users reporting on their findings about the fuses. |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2018 7:41:33 GMT
I don’t see any specific shilling going on, but I do see a few enthusiastic users reporting on their findings about the fuses. Then it's not shilling, is it? If we are to remove enthusiastic reports then we may as well just pack up and shut down all forums. That is the POINT of TAS, to share experiences. If I really like a component or a tweak, I'm going to report on it and I don't want the shadow of being accused of shilling every time I post something. I'm an enthusiast and I love music. Accept it or move on! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 7:51:43 GMT
I never said it was.
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Post by SteveC on Apr 4, 2018 9:53:17 GMT
"Is this the five minute argument, or the full half hour?"
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Post by Slinger on Apr 4, 2018 9:59:15 GMT
It's more likely that a manufacturer or retailer would pay me NOT to continually mention them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 11:35:03 GMT
Mention what?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 11:53:03 GMT
I haven't seen any evidence of shilling on this forum, quite the reverse, just people passionate about their experiences.
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Post by TheMooN on Apr 4, 2018 12:26:27 GMT
I haven't seen any evidence of shilling on this forum, quite the reverse, just people passionate about their experiences. Your just not Paranoid enough Paul  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 12:33:11 GMT
I guess I have more important things to do in my life  |
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Post by John on Apr 4, 2018 18:59:53 GMT
I tend to stay out of threads like fuses as whilst I have experimented with them I have done my best to get out off the mains grid.
I must admit it frustrates me to see passion mistaken as shilling. It is rare that we feel that we need to make a public statement. But I think it is right to address this.
As for myself I have a DIY speaker system that has no chance of being a commercial success. A server that is offers very high SQ for not crazy money. Power amps that are no longer made and a professional amp that is sold to mostly pro musicians.
Unlike most people the value of my system has gone down over the years, but I consider my system to be sounding better than ever. I have no expectations of anyone else following a similar path.
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Post by Greg on Apr 5, 2018 0:36:14 GMT
Clearly ChrisB would like a response from me because he has named me and I used the word shilling in my last post on the Fuse thread.
What I actually said was, “Hey ho, each to their own but I bulk considerably when nonsense ‘black magic’ is being promoted, maybe even shilled here.”
Maybe the term shill was poorly chosen, but please note I did not point any accusation at any person in particular and certainly not at ChrisB who has been almost completely absent on the fuse thread. Maybe a better term to use is Spam.
Look at a few facts. The Fuse thread was started in Jan 2017 and the OP is a Hi-Fi Trader who sells to the public. I have been one of his customers in the past. He sells SR fuses. Back in Jan 2017, it was established that SR fuses do not have British Standard certification. It is therefore unlawful to sell them in the UK. However, through the course of the 47 pages of this thread, the OP has contributed in excess of 40 posts. My analysis of those contributions is that 25 of them are Spam, some blatant and others less transparently obvious. Furthermore, those posts have contributed towards the thread remaining live on the forum for more than a year.
One of the owners of this forum, who also happens to be its most prolific contributor has constantly and prolifically exposed on the fuse thread, his personal use of SR fuses, even after it was made clear that SR fuses are sold unlawfully. Further more, even after that time, he has indicated his SR fuse use is progressive and increasing in volume. Despite claims to the contrary, it is clear from what has been written in one of the OP’s posts that he has sold SR fuses to this forum owner.
I am not an expert in the relevant British Standard and corresponding EU regulations, but it is likely that the fitting of the fuse and then using it is also unlawful. It will be of no consequence if the user believes the use of the fuse in equipment in their home is safe. They remain an illegal product. The user of such fuses in their residence that is unfortunate enough to suffer an electrical fire should expect that their home insurance is invalidated regardless of whether the fuse is a cause of the fire or not. The possible consequence of a domestic fire could be a fatality, life changing injury and/or significant loss of property. Third parties might be the victims of such a fire, not just the fuse user.
Ownership of a public internet forum carries responsibilities. That responsibility becomes significantly relevant when the owner is a prolific contributor who, in this instant portrays an authoritative knowledge of the forums relevant topic and purpose. The forum will be read by many people and certainly more people than those who constitute the active membership. There is every likelihood that the forum owners continued publicised use and the unethical positive comments made of these unlawful fuses could have undue influence on the reader, leading them to use the unlawful product and possibly act unlawfully themselves.
The forum owners are also responsible for allowing the contributions associated with these fuses from any person who promotes or unlawfully sells them.
The question of whether these fuses do wonders for a hi-fi or are foo or snake oil should be irrelevant. Their illegality certainly is. IMO, the fuse thread should be deleted and in future, no similar thread should be allowed regarding unlawful products.
I understand this forum already has rules regarding spam. These need to be vigorously applied.
ChrisB, I hope this has satisfied your wish for a response from me.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2018 5:21:12 GMT
Look at a few facts. The Fuse thread was started in Jan 2017 and the OP is a Hi-Fi Trader who sells to the public. I have been one of his customers in the past. He sells SR fuses. Back in Jan 2017, it was established that SR fuses do not have British Standard certification. It is therefore unlawful to sell them in the UK. However, through the course of the 47 pages of this thread, the OP has contributed in excess of 40 posts. My analysis of those contributions is that 25 of them are Spam, some blatant and others less transparently obvious. Furthermore, those posts have contributed towards the thread remaining live on the forum for more than a year. One of the owners of this forum, who also happens to be its most prolific contributor has constantly and prolifically exposed on the fuse thread, his personal use of SR fuses, even after it was made clear that SR fuses are sold unlawfully. Further more, even after that time, he has indicated his SR fuse use is progressive and increasing in volume. Despite claims to the contrary, it is clear from what has been written in one of the OP’s posts that he has sold SR fuses to this forum owner. It doesn't matter who starts a thread topic, in this case it was David. It's a good topic and was seen as worthy of debate. We had already discussed fuses in other threads but this was a way of keeping it in one place. The certification issue is nothing but a constant attempt to sidetrack from the discussion of whether fuses make a sound quality contribution and what that is. It is down to each person whether they wish to use a fuse that is certified by BS or not. There are quite a few brands of fuse (I have a little collection) that do not have BS certification, not just SR. My use of SR and other fuses is my business. I have bought them from MCRU and from other vendors. There is nothing more to say here. Any implication that I am somehow shilling/spamming/in cahoots with vendors is insulting and will be met with strict moderation. I am in no mood to tolerate any more such suggestions. You may think me rude, but it pales in comparison with the weight of rudeness that has been directed at me. It is down to us Admin & Mods to determine what breaks the rules and what is acceptable. There is a mechanism for reporting posts which is well used and well monitored. This is the way to communicate your feelings about matters, especially when you are calling into question a person's integrity. Ultimately, if you don't agree with the direction this forum takes, you can always vote with your feet and leave. |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2018 5:22:37 GMT
I must admit it frustrates me to see passion mistaken as shilling. Exactly that, John. We're not going to be apologetic for being passionate about getting the best from our music. |
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Post by tonyone on Apr 5, 2018 8:10:05 GMT
but perhaps someone might put me right and explain how exactly this business model works? Late to the whole 'shilling gate' affair but sure there must be some insinuation of getting the goods for a lower (nah free) price than what is RRP? and as such then individuals would be seen to gain when promoting a product(s). |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 5, 2018 8:24:58 GMT
but sure there must be some insinuation of getting the goods for a lower (nah free) price than what is RRP? No-one in their right mind pays RRP for things these days, so that measure is meaningless. If you're suggesting that anyone here has received goods for free then that would be exerting influence and shilling. So please state why 'there must be some insinuation'? Interesting use of the passive tense, but there is a strong implication in there. |
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