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Post by Tim on Feb 21, 2018 7:48:07 GMT
I move on pretty quickly from reviewers who say the difference was night and day, I was blown away, my jaw hit the floor, gob-smacked or like lifting a veil.
But the pièce de résistance - they were right there in the room in front of me. They need to see more live music as that's total BS. Ain't no Hi-Fi can do that.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:05:46 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. No - other countries like france use what is the equivalent of a copper bar with their 16A protected radials -and you seem to have a problem with that, although other countries find it safe The only problem with a copper bar is it is a breach of the regulations. So is using a fuse in a BS1363 plug which does not conform to BS1362 and say so on the fuse case. Honestly, its not difficult
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:11:17 GMT
On the subject of protection, lets talk case fuses as well as plug fuses
If I have a 2 amp fuse in my Quad 405 amp on the brown wire only, a short with a resistance of 120 ohms or less would cause that to blow. Presumably the designer feels that the load on the brown wire should never be less than 120 ohms and designed the protection accordingly.
What current would flow through the brown wire if my Quad 405 were powered with balanced mains and there was a short of 120 ohms? Would the fuse blow? If the short was 60ohms and the fuse in the brown wire blew, would there still be a voltage inside the casework of the 405 If there was a short of 120 ohms between the blue wire and another point (ok - earth) which fuse would blow? Would there still be a voltage present inside the casework?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:12:26 GMT
As a side note I've found balanced mains improves the sound of my Lenco and Phono no end...I'm quite taken aback as it happens but it made no difference to my amp. Go figure. I don't think it would be impossible to figure, but not here. Do you visit the tent?
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Feb 21, 2018 8:19:31 GMT
On the subject of protection, lets talk case fuses as well as plug fuses If I have a 2 amp fuse in my Quad 405 amp on the brown wire only, a short with a resistance of 120 ohms or less would cause that to blow. Presumably the designer feels that the load on the brown wire should never be less than 120 ohms and designed the protection accordingly. What current would flow through the brown wire if my Quad 405 were powered with balanced mains and there was a short of 120 ohms? Would the fuse blow? If the short was 60ohms and the fuse in the brown wire blew, would there still be a voltage inside the casework of the 405 If there was a short of 120 ohms between the blue wire and another point (ok - earth) which fuse would blow? Would there still be a voltage present inside the casework? Not if there were a double pole RCBO on the output of the BMU, both legs would always trip.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 21, 2018 8:21:04 GMT
Honestly, its not difficult Indeed it isn't, I've made my position QUITE CLEAR now.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:22:02 GMT
I move on pretty quickly from reviewers who say the difference was night and day, I was blown away, my jaw hit the floor, gob-smacked or like lifting a veil. But the pièce de résistance - they were right there in the room in front of me. They need to see more live music as that's total BS. Ain't no Hi-Fi can do that. You know, mostly I'm very onside with those thoughts. Hyperbole is everywhere and meaningless. I do listen to a lot of live music. Sue's circle of friends are musicians, and we just enjoy gigs as a hobby. We are in the process of doing some simple recordings of self and Sue (acoustic guitar and vocals) as rehearsals and backup since my son would like her to sing at his wedding. First, note if we perform live the guitar would be miked and/or use its pickups, the main one of which is a fancy piezzo although mixed with a soundhole mike. So even that simplest arrangement is already not "Pure" acoustic but stuffed through a PA (probably with the wrong sort of fuse, fitted the wrong way round) Secondly, (and probably because live is rarely like listening to Sue sing choral works unmiked in a church or cathedral) there are times when some music does seem "in the room" and that would very much be my definition of what I am listening for on my type of system with some music Joan Armatrading would be one such artist on her simple arrangements. Alison Moyet on her Jazz covers another. With the quads - I get that illusion - strongly sometimes.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:26:47 GMT
On the subject of protection, lets talk case fuses as well as plug fuses If I have a 2 amp fuse in my Quad 405 amp on the brown wire only, a short with a resistance of 120 ohms or less would cause that to blow. Presumably the designer feels that the load on the brown wire should never be less than 120 ohms and designed the protection accordingly. What current would flow through the brown wire if my Quad 405 were powered with balanced mains and there was a short of 120 ohms? Would the fuse blow? If the short was 60ohms and the fuse in the brown wire blew, would there still be a voltage inside the casework of the 405 If there was a short of 120 ohms between the blue wire and another point (ok - earth) which fuse would blow? Would there still be a voltage present inside the casework? Not if there were a double pole RCBO on the output of the BMU, both legs would always trip. Actually, whilst I endorse that arrangement, those RCBO's are unlikely to have the correct current protection to replace the internal case fuses. Unlikely as in "won't". They do however protect the cable, and in the event of a big enough short, properly cut all power inside the case too. The only way to get directly equivalent protection for the equipment from case fuses, is to modify the equipment to have fuses on brown and blue of the appropriate value to reflect the fact that each cable carries only half the current. Interestingly on this broad subject, France uses dual pole MCB's as well as RCD's everywhere. So if (as is likely) Martins HiFi spur only has single pole protection, it is not directly equivalent to the French system.
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Post by tonyone on Feb 21, 2018 8:28:54 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. Yea at the very worst its gonna blow.... and do its job
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Post by tonyone on Feb 21, 2018 8:30:33 GMT
I move on pretty quickly from reviewers who say the difference was night and day, I was blown away, my jaw hit the floor, gob-smacked or like lifting a veil. But the pièce de résistance - they were right there in the room in front of me. They need to see more live music as that's total BS. Ain't no Hi-Fi can do that. I agree with your view, I had wondered if Mr Moon wrote for What HIFI Magazine perhaps??
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:39:39 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. Yea at the very worst its gonna blow.... and do its job And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job?
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Post by scotty38 on Feb 21, 2018 8:50:45 GMT
I think a copper bar is too much of a mismatch for the cables either side of it. I let this one go but I need to come back to it.... How is a copper bar too much of a mismatch versus a fuse and whatever material it's made of? Given there are views that the fuses can make a positive difference is it an assumption that the cabling either side is of a material closer to the make up of the fuse than it is of copper? Pardon my attempt at humour but this confuses me.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 8:51:17 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. The point is that neither approach conforms to the safety standards, but one you are happy with. How do you know it fuses in a correct way to protect the cable? What evidence is there to show this? We know a copper bar does not, but there is no proof these fuses do.
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Post by tonyone on Feb 21, 2018 8:52:33 GMT
Yea at the very worst its gonna blow.... and do its job And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job? Of course.... I was just presenting the irony of something not to standard and failing....... which is indeed its job.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:57:50 GMT
And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job? Of course.... I was just presenting the irony of something not to standard and failing....... which is indeed its job. Sure. I don't think anybody has suggested that a fuse will not blow at the correct value just because it doesn't choose to meet BS. Nor even that it might explode when it blows or any other dangerous aspect. Merely that it would not comply with regulations. And some people will prefer not to deliberately breach UK regulations with regard to plugs and sockets.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:59:59 GMT
I think a copper bar is too much of a mismatch for the cables either side of it. I let this one go but I need to come back to it.... How is a copper bar too much of a mismatch versus a fuse and whatever material it's made of? Given there are views that the fuses can make a positive difference is it an assumption that the cabling either side is of a material closer to the make up of the fuse than it is of copper? Pardon my attempt at humour but this confuses me..... A good enough point. The implication is a copper bar is TOO much copper in the conducting path compared with stranded copper cable. Or the copper bar that is the pin on a BS1363 plug
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Post by Stratmangler on Feb 21, 2018 9:47:11 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Tedious focus? The lack of external test certification doesn't mean that the SR devices are unsafe, or that they're likely to explode, however the lack of external test certification of any kind draws doubt that the Synergistic Research devices work repeatedly in a predictable fashion. The CE compliant comment Kevin received means diddly - it's a self certification process, and you can write whatever you want into your criteria. The SR devices could well have something along the lines of them being denominated by colour, that they shall be coloured the same as they are named, and that they have SR writ big on them in their CE criteria. They pass that one with flying colours. The fact is I can go online and order up fuses of all kinds from Farnell, RS Components, City Electrical, etc. etc., and the devices I order will all have one thing in common - the manufacturers have all submitted devices and specification sheets to external testing houses, and they have been proven to meet the set criteria. The manufacturers do internal quality audits on a daily production basis, and they have to keep QC records for auditing purposes. They also submit devices for continued external testing on a regular basis, just to ensure that testing procedures during manufacturing haven't slipped. And they do all of this because the fuses they make are safety devices. Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? They'll use something properly tested to one of a number of world recognised standards, but you'll find that in many countries a British Standards mark is accepted without quibble.
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Post by TheMooN on Feb 21, 2018 9:49:01 GMT
MODERATION: Baggage removed..with the internal 20mm power rail fuses I have always gone with S>R (having ABABAB,d ) that orientation several times however....Having picked up an used burnt in 13amp black to feed my pre until I go Schuko I was somewhat dissatisfied with the result after a good 4 hours of system warm up time...Hmmmmmmm, WTF spin the fuse so R upstream S downstream and whoosh.... Mahoosive sound stage, timbre, tonality and decay... You say you were dissatisfied but how would you describe your system? You say you had a mahoosive sound stage with the fuse oriented R to S. How bad was it the other way and has your system always been that bad? Really curious on how much better it is as it sounds like a night and day difference and that's the bit I'm struggling with.... Perhaps I should have quantified that comment somewhat scotty, my recent expeariances with aftermarket fuses have related to experimenting with the 20x5mm power rail fusing internal to my pre and power amplification. On reflection "dissatisfied " is too erroneous a terminology in that I have become accustomed to an unquestionable evolution in the fidelity of my system whilst progressing from the SR Red fuses through Black and most recently Blue. In this instance with a change from an 13amp bussman to an SR Black in the mains cable powering a Furutech distribution block I was to a degree a little less impressed with the level of improvment that I had become accustomed too with the chassis fusing. That said, improvement there undoubtedly was. It was only when changing the orientation of the SR fuse that all matters audible morphed into the MAHOOOSIVE rather than merely the Massive.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 9:56:56 GMT
Wow, that's quite a bit of activity in a short while and loads to take in. I'll make a couple of points and digest the rest.
I agree with Pinkie that the illusion of a performer and accompaniment being there in the room can be convincing. To me, it doesn't matter if it's "false" as long as it appears real and enhances my experience. I've also witnessed incredible "presence" from systems that aren't usually praised for their imaging. I don't therefore have a problem with someone saying the performer was "there in the room". Describing our perception of sound is a challenge, so, I tend to be more open than most to the more colourful descriptions that have become known as "reviewer speak". In fact, I have found them far more helpful than irritating over the years.
The copper bar is an interesting one. I am very open to the possibility of it having an impact on the sound. Perhaps not in the same way as an SR fuse though, because there is no claim (and no reason to suspect) an influence on the mains beyond its physical space. I must admit that I find faffing about on the floor, messing with wires and plugs to be a real PITA, so it wouldn't make A/B comparisons a pleasurable task. It may also affect my perception. I also admit to an expectation bias that swapping a fuse for my gold plated bar will make either no difference, or one so subtle as to be quickly forgotten. In other words I expect it not to make any difference to my long term listening pleasure. But then, that's just an expectation: I have expected many things in life and been confounded!
I have only just woken up (almost noon: still not well) and not even out of bed yet, so today is probably out. I will try the experiment though. Whenever the outcome, it won't put me off trying an SR fuse though because I don't automatically assume the SR fuse cannot sound better than no fuse at all.
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Post by TheMooN on Feb 21, 2018 9:57:28 GMT
I move on pretty quickly from reviewers who say the difference was night and day, I was blown away, my jaw hit the floor, gob-smacked or like lifting a veil. But the pièce de résistance - they were right there in the room in front of me. They need to see more live music as that's total BS. Ain't no Hi-Fi can do that. I agree with your view, I had wondered if Mr Moon wrote for What HIFI Magazine perhaps?? As a matter of fact I do not, nor have I availed myself of any of the above oft used and perhaps abused audio speakee terminology, that being said Tim perhaps you might educate us in the best way to convey in words what I/we are actually hearing and wish to share said expeariances online rather than in person ?
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