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Post by ChrisB on Nov 16, 2016 7:50:17 GMT
.....in France?
This needs to be repeated. It's not even in the OP and this could lead to potential misunderstanding by people who don't know your or Richards situation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 7:59:13 GMT
No. in the U.K. See here.
Before making statements like the above, you really should check. In France, no safety check is required by law.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 16, 2016 8:06:52 GMT
The practical reality is that you shouldn't even install it yourself unless you are a qualified electrician with the requisite test equipment. Waiting for certification to test a potentially faulty circuit is way too late in the process.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 16, 2016 8:14:31 GMT
No, I really should remember to add the punctuation that I intended to use. Now corrected. However, my mistake makes my point, doesn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 8:23:43 GMT
My response was to the post I quoted. How is that ambiguous?
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Post by pinkie on Nov 16, 2016 8:37:45 GMT
Hi Richard Can I please suggest that at an impedance of less than 100 Ohm between Live and Earth would suggest a problem in the wiring - do you perhaps mean the Earth Loop Impedance test to be between Neutral and Earth? Cheers. Bill Hi Bill I had vowed not to bother with this forum any more, but you're a nice guy and it was a direct question. No - the measure is live to earth (you can also carry out a neutral to earth). It is testing how much impedance there will be in the event a fault current runs. Ideally you want zero. Martin gets close to that. With RCD protection EDF in France authorise 100 ohm. Earth loop impedance testEdit : When it comes to mains, if you don't know you know, then don't fiddle about. It is not that these devices are inherently dangerous - the danger is in not understanding how they work and interact. And particularly dangerous is to make statements that are incorrect such as "an RCD on a consumer unit will still protect a fault arising on the other side of a transformer connected to it". Its not the device that is dangerous - its the incorrect information
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 8:39:41 GMT
It appears that on this forum it is ok to change a socket yourself, but you are not happy about installing a new circuit and getting it checked professionally? The difference with the new circuit is that you need to get it certified. With a socket change, do you need to do this? Is it classed as a wiring change?
You need the same competency to do both, as you are working with the same voltages.
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Post by pinkie on Nov 16, 2016 8:57:43 GMT
I had my radial RCD tested and certified when it was installed. It tripped as specified. Stunning. If I understand you correctly, you had a dedicated hifi radial circuit installed, and had RCD protection to that circuit installed and tested. And then the only thing you plug into it is a mains regenerator which isolates all the equipment plugged into it from the RCD - and ensures that equipment and its cabling can never trip the RCD and the RCD can offer no protection to anything on the other side of the regen. Not having RCD's in the first place I get Believing that the (vanishingly small?) risk of electrocution or fire from low current earth leaks in the case of hifi equipment means RCD's are unnecessary to protect these devices I get Connecting and testing an RCD on a dedicated circuit only to completely disable it for anything actually using that circuit - I don't get And I no longer care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 9:01:32 GMT
This is why I will try my test no. 3 this weekend. I want to see if the leakage current causes the RCD or Regenerator to trip. If it does, then I will see what I think of it in my system, if it does not, it goes back in the box....
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Post by AlanS on Nov 16, 2016 9:02:41 GMT
My primary concern is my daughter and her safety. Every time I put a record on, she asks/demands to come upstairs. She is very inquisitive. If I had to box up the HiFi to keep her safe, then I would - no questions asked. As we have had to putup with your vague concerns over daughter safety pray tell us how old is this daughter and what does your imagination think her curiosity might lead her to do? Does she have a history of messing with electrical equipment and causing electrical problems either to herself or the device? If she is there when you are if a move towards this feared behaviour starts surely you can say something or take an action to control her? Thank you for a most entertaining thread.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 9:06:57 GMT
I am glad you find it amusing. The rest of your post does not warrant more of a response.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 16, 2016 10:42:03 GMT
Stunning. If I understand you correctly, you had a dedicated hifi radial circuit installed, and had RCD protection to that circuit installed and tested. And then the only thing you plug into it is a mains regenerator which isolates all the equipment plugged into it from the RCD - and ensures that equipment and its cabling can never trip the RCD and the RCD can offer no protection to anything on the other side of the regen. And again, Richard, you are demonstrating that your fixation with RCDs denies you any ability to step back and see the bigger picture. I have already described the safety features built into the P10 (and likely other good regenerators). It has monitoring, clamping and shutdown capabilities. Indeed, I have shutdown my P10 on a couple of occasions thus demonstrating that it is doing a good job of monitoring the output conditions. ...and before you jump at the chance to ask "what if the P10 fails" my response would be "what if the RCD fails"?
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Post by BilliumB on Nov 16, 2016 10:59:32 GMT
Hi Richard Can I please suggest that at an impedance of less than 100 Ohm between Live and Earth would suggest a problem in the wiring - do you perhaps mean the Earth Loop Impedance test to be between Neutral and Earth? Cheers. Bill Hi Bill I had vowed not to bother with this forum any more, but you're a nice guy and it was a direct question. No - the measure is live to earth (you can also carry out a neutral to earth). It is testing how much impedance there will be in the event a fault current runs. Ideally you want zero. Martin gets close to that. With RCD protection EDF in France authorise 100 ohm. Earth loop impedance testThanks Richard - I understand what you are saying in your earlier post now. Cheers. Bill
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Post by pinkie on Nov 16, 2016 11:36:34 GMT
Stunning. If I understand you correctly, you had a dedicated hifi radial circuit installed, and had RCD protection to that circuit installed and tested. And then the only thing you plug into it is a mains regenerator which isolates all the equipment plugged into it from the RCD - and ensures that equipment and its cabling can never trip the RCD and the RCD can offer no protection to anything on the other side of the regen. And again, Richard, you are demonstrating that your fixation with RCDs denies you any ability to step back and see the bigger picture. I have already described the safety features built into the P10 (and likely other good regenerators). It has monitoring, clamping and shutdown capabilities. Indeed, I have shutdown my P10 on a couple of occasions thus demonstrating that it is doing a good job of monitoring the output conditions. ...and before you jump at the chance to ask "what if the P10 fails" my response would be "what if the RCD fails"? Martin The thread is about RCD protection Your post I was responding to was about you installing and testing RCD protection In that context - commenting about RCD protection is hardly my fixation. Just relevant comment. Since we are talking about RCD protection - lets be clear what that is. It is protection which detects a differential between live and neutral, either 1) to allow a high impedance earth to continue to provide a safety trip in the event of a live voltage on an equipment casing. This can be quite high current (500ma) and quite slow trigger times, or 2) to protect from electrocution - which requires a trip in 5ms or less of a current of 30ma or less In that context, all we are interested in is whether something you stick in the system (your P10) offers equivalent protection. The fact that it shuts down to prevent popping a driver on your Ushers may be important to you , but it is not relevant to a discussion about maintaining the level of life-saver protection which electrical codes look to from RCD's. If your P10 shuts down in less than 5ms when there is more than 30ma of current difference between live and neutral - then you have equivalent protection (of lives). If it doesn't - you don't. I don't have one to test whether it does or doesn't offer that life saving protection - but all I can read about it , including your comments, suggests it doesn't. Other forms of shut down are interesting for you but irrelevant to this discussion. I like to stay on topic. That's fine. You are happy with that. It just makes the dedicated RCD on the supply to it redundant and irrelevant - and that is what I was smiling at
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 12:17:25 GMT
The AG1500 will be arriving tomorrow. As long as I am able to pick it up from the post office by 17:00 I should be able to test the protection tomorrow night as far as small leakage currents go.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 16, 2016 12:18:27 GMT
The fact that it shuts down to prevent popping a driver on your Ushers may be important to you I give up. How can a regenerator have any concept of a speaker or its drivers? EOT for me.
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Post by John on Nov 16, 2016 15:37:34 GMT
PS Audio are a huge company that I imagine would take safety very serious espically in Amercia where companies and individuals are regulary sued. Unfortunatly reading a lot of the above is getting quite tedious due to the circular nature of the debate. I will happily continue to use my reginarator, the music industry will happily use balanced mains within its music studios and the world will contintue for awhile......
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Post by Greg on Nov 17, 2016 0:40:12 GMT
Oh well, mains.........Pinkie is a dog with a bone........whichever forum you like, 'cos he's been there, done that and got banned from a few in the process. Mains obsession is an illness. What a blessing not to be so afflicted.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 17, 2016 6:41:26 GMT
Being obsessive and having it rammed down our throats is damaging the important message for all music lovers.
The important message is: cleaning your mains brings rewards in improved sound quality. Being safe helps, too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 7:01:31 GMT
Safety first for me, followed by any improvements in sound quality. I will post my findings about the leakage test as soon as I get the chance to do it.
My thoughts on the AG1500 will take a little longer.
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