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Post by dsjr on Dec 29, 2015 12:52:48 GMT
I love the lack of grain that so many valve amps exhibit, but it's been known for decades how the output transformer dominates practically everything about a valve amp - OTL types are just too unstable and much as I loved my Croft OTL (when it worked and wasn't causing firework displays if ignored for an hour or so), I couldn't live with it for more than six months I remember.
High Fidelity to me is the closest approach to where the mastering engineer was at when the media was created. I don't think we can go further back to the studio sessions, as so much is done to the music between being played and being mastered for general consumption. I really don't believe the playback system should be to much of a processor/musical instrument/tone control, although I think that all gear has some kind of effect on the signal passing through it, if only very slight and inaudible in many cases.
Plenty of discussion on the Harbeth User Group about the awful response errors when a transformer coupled valve amp drives a typical speaker load, but one of the worst has to be this below -
www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements#GDxzKyO7KKUSsHdx.97
I single this one out because I remember Tony L (PFM) buying some Harbeth SHL5's and promptly returning them because they didn't sound right with his prima Luna amplifier. Seeing the hideous response errors, I'm not surprised!
P.S. Other transformer coupled amps I've seen responses of driving the same load are around +/- 1 or 2db...
Just to say, be careful when choosing valve gear, if that's where you want to go. I'd like to see how a vintage 15 ohm load works with these designs..
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Post by DaveC on Dec 29, 2015 13:11:26 GMT
I sent my evaluation Harbeth's back too. And they were on a solid state new Luxman ! The amplifier/speaker match is often overlooked !
Dave
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Post by pre65 on Dec 29, 2015 13:16:31 GMT
Let's just say the amp + speaker combination needs to be carefully considered.
Crossover complexity seems a big problem for some valve amps, and the best crossover is no crossover.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 14:58:34 GMT
As a non-techie, are there any guidelines on what valve amps would be most susceptible, eg single ended or push/pull. Does the kind of output valve matter or does the type of transformer play a big part? Also what sort of speakers are most likely to suffer? Complex crossover, reactive load, high impedance, low impedance? I realise there are no hard and fast rules but any broad indicators would be a help
Edit: my only experience of Harbeth is the P3ES which is a yawn fest IMO. Are they typical of Harbeth?
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Post by dsjr on Dec 29, 2015 15:38:07 GMT
I sent my evaluation Harbeth's back too. And they were on a solid state new Luxman ! The amplifier/speaker match is often overlooked ! Dave Be careful what you say Mr Cawley A pair of SHL5's (not the 'plus') are promised my way as soon as I can collect them and I think I'm the only one in existence who currently finds the 'Plus' version too tight-assed for its own good - the previous model is more relaxing I think...
Big Lux amps? Syrup-toned if my memories serve, although one or two on the HUG use this combo.
I like this speaker range very much and hear them regularly, appreciating they're not for everybody. Excellent as the old Crown amps are - see Ken Rockwell's recent evaluation of them, I really should re-jig the cabinet to take the Krell 50S, which runs very cool until it's pushed hard, but I'll need a slimmer preamp with phono stage and affordable KRC2's (better than the KRC3 I'm told) don't come up very often, at any price and neither does the ML 28, which I very much admired back in the day...
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Dec 29, 2015 17:11:04 GMT
As a non-techie, are there any guidelines on what valve amps would be most susceptible, eg single ended or push/pull. Does the kind of output valve matter or does the type of transformer play a big part? Also what sort of speakers are most likely to suffer? Complex crossover, reactive load, high impedance, low impedance? I realise there are no hard and fast rules but any broad indicators would be a help Edit: my only experience of Harbeth is the P3ES which is a yawn fest IMO. Are they typical of Harbeth? The quality of the output transformers can have a huge effect on the frequency response and perceived sound quality of a valve amp.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 17:23:49 GMT
As a non-techie, are there any guidelines on what valve amps would be most susceptible, eg single ended or push/pull. Does the kind of output valve matter or does the type of transformer play a big part? Also what sort of speakers are most likely to suffer? Complex crossover, reactive load, high impedance, low impedance? I realise there are no hard and fast rules but any broad indicators would be a help Edit: my only experience of Harbeth is the P3ES which is a yawn fest IMO. Are they typical of Harbeth? SET's are by far the worst and in my opinion are not suitable for hifi use (with few exceptions). It all revolves around a few main areas... Feedback being the most important. The more feedback used, the lower the output impedance (and hence lower the response errors into different loads and greater the damping factor) and flatter the response. The amount of feedback that can be used depends on the design of the amp and, most importantly, on the design and quality of the output transformer. You cannot just keep arbitrarily increasing feedback as the amp will become unstable and turn into an oscillator.... and the quality of the OPT is usually the biggest limiting factor in how much can be used. Radford were about the most technically advanced valve amps in this respect (still today!). They had superb OPT's and mainly used a pentode/triode phase splitter which reduced internal phase shift still further and allowed something like 35dB of feedback. This is a lot by valve amp standards and is why the Radford amps have such low distortion figures and wide frequency response. Around 20 - 24dB is more common (remember dB is a logarithmic scale!) and these days less still or non at all can be found in use... which some like the sound of but it turns the amp into a colouration machine/tone control in truth! The type of output valve also has an effect on all this but it gets more technical and most of the more common verities (EL84, EL34, 6L6, KT88, 6550 etc) are much of a muchness in this area. Far more important is whether they are used as pentode, ultra linear or triode. Speakers wise well the more the reactance and the more the impedance changes with frequency then the more important it is to have a low output impedance from the amp driving them. Complex crossovers and multi drivers can be worst in all this but... not always!
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Post by DaveC on Dec 29, 2015 17:25:03 GMT
Dave, it was a brand new Luxman solid state and a brand new pair of HL5 plus, late 2014. There were lots of issues and they simply asked for them back with no comment.
As for amp/speaker matching, way too complex to distill into a paragraph. But low damping factor amplifiers do not go well with complex and generally inefficient speakers. Which is why 300B SE's go so well with Klipschorns for example.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 29, 2015 17:42:45 GMT
Ah, ok. I think the whole synergy thing is overlooked in objective-land and this is one area I think where going active may not be 'automatically' better, especially if the passive crossovers have been very carefully designed around the drivers used. It was different in the 80's Linn/Naim days where the basic speakers had such terrible flaws that going active could only make them better, but today, with modern drivers which have no nasties in them (this rules out most metal cone drivers which take off like tin cans in the treble), the crossover's job seems far less intrusive. Just my current musings and easily open to challenge
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Post by pre65 on Dec 29, 2015 17:49:38 GMT
As a non-techie, are there any guidelines on what valve amps would be most susceptible, eg single ended or push/pull. Does the kind of output valve matter or does the type of transformer play a big part? Also what sort of speakers are most likely to suffer? Complex crossover, reactive load, high impedance, low impedance? I realise there are no hard and fast rules but any broad indicators would be a help Edit: my only experience of Harbeth is the P3ES which is a yawn fest IMO. Are they typical of Harbeth? SET's are by far the worst and in my opinion are not suitable for hifi use (with few exceptions). I beg your pardon !!!! I can think of very many exceptions, when used with the right speakers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 18:37:51 GMT
SET's are by far the worst and in my opinion are not suitable for hifi use (with few exceptions). I beg your pardon !!!! I can think of very many exceptions, when used with the right speakers. It's very true. I have heard only one SET amp that would not be blown out of the water by a NAD 3020. And that one would of course be much better if it had been push pull and used feedback. An amplifier should not have to be "used with the right loudspeakers"! Anathema! A policy of "first choose an amp with 5% distortion and a frequency response that looks like a contour map of the Pyrenees and then try and find an incredibly inaccurate speaker, that has opposite faults to the amp, in order to get some sort of "balance" to the sound" does not appeal!! In the days when the valve ruled supreme, single ended power amps were quite rightly regarded as suitable only for table top radios and the amps in TV sets. Anything with any pretence towards quality used push pull. The rantings of 6 Moons and loads of suspect hifi journalists do not dilute the technical facts honed over the last 100 years! I find pathetic the whole camp of "lets take parts and ideas from 1922 and see if we can boost the distortion up to 10% and get only 100Hz to 8KHz frequency response, maybe we can get only 5 watts as well if we try.. then we'll make stupid claims about "musicallity" and "purity" " It's like taking a Model T Ford and trying to claim that because it only does 35MPH, breaks down often, has no roof and a bone shaking ride that it's the essence of true motoring and far superior to modern cars or some such...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 18:59:32 GMT
Deep joy AoS on leave to interplay here The world is full of Kings & Queens that blind your eyes and steal your dreams it's Heaven & Hell Remove us from the combat zone number one
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Post by pre65 on Dec 29, 2015 19:14:48 GMT
I beg your pardon !!!! I can think of very many exceptions, when used with the right speakers. It's very true. I have heard only one SET amp that would not be blown out of the water by a NAD 3020. And that one would of course be much better if it had been push pull and used feedback. I'm sorry to be coarse, but I find your argument a load of bollocks.
Even solid state amps can benefit from "the right speaker".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 19:59:06 GMT
It's very true. I have heard only one SET amp that would not be blown out of the water by a NAD 3020. And that one would of course be much better if it had been push pull and used feedback. I'm sorry to be coarse, but I find your argument a load of bollocks.
Even solid state amps can benefit from "the right speaker". Facts not argument dear boy. Something I know rather more than most about having spent a lifetime as an audio electronic engineer There is more bollocks talked about hifi by "audiophiles" than by even a complete layman who once owned a tower system! The latter may know nowt but at least doesn't believe complete bollocks to be the truth.
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Post by John on Dec 29, 2015 20:05:31 GMT
Jaz can you watch how you debate your point I know you feel a bit provoked right now. This is a interesting thread lets keep it that way
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Post by pre65 on Dec 29, 2015 20:15:29 GMT
I understand where you are coming from, not everything valve is good, but you obviously have not hear the range of superb amps that a body of DIY enthusiasts (such as on Audio-Talk forum) have created.
High sensitivity speakers and (relatively) low power valves can result in magic.
I don't dismiss solid state, but to me, from what I've heard over the last 50 years, I prefer my valves.
It's up to each individual to decide what they enjoy most, and if someone enjoys driving a "classic" car more than a modern one why should I condemn their judgement.
EDIT.
I don't know Jez, but I'm wary of anyone who tries to convince me of anything by stating " I'm an expert, so I know".
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Post by ynwan on Dec 29, 2015 21:06:55 GMT
My experience is that, more often than not, high sensitivity speakers and low power valves can be fun but also very coloured.
I used to own (well I still own them, I'm just not using them now) speakers that used just a capacitor in series with the tweeter - so as minimal as they come. I now use a speaker with second order slopes for the mid and treble and third order active for the bass. Contrary to the minimal crossover concept the more complex crossover speakers are better in every way (they are even more efficient).
In post #9 DSJR states that modern drivers have 'no nasties in them', but that just isn't true and nor is the following generalisation that metal domes 'take off like tin cans in the treble'. The push with a lot of drive unit technology has been to make the driver as pistonic as possible over its intended operating range. The counter to this is that breakup is often quite energetic outside of the expected usage range and if not crossed over quite steeply, or with the addition of notch filters, there can be plenty of 'nasties' present.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 21:50:24 GMT
For what it's worth the best SET I've heard was by Nick and owned by Gary from AOS ("Gazjam"). I have nothing against valves at all and often use them myself where they will do the best job, often in hybrid designs. In the case of SET's though they are not a good idea. If one must go single ended then solid state such as Colins will be far superior. Push pull power amps are intrinsically better than single ended, which have huge distortion unless corrected by lots of feedback. As I pointed out earlier the presence of an OPT rules that out. As Mark says, very high sensitivity speakers are often coloured. The harshest, shoutiest sounds I have ever heard have been courtesy of full range high sensitivity speakers! Yes if someone enjoys driving a very old classic car that's great... just don't try telling me that it's better than a modern one (in subtle ways which I don't understand) 'cos it patently ain't!
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Post by pre65 on Dec 29, 2015 21:59:31 GMT
F Yes if someone enjoys driving a very old classic car that's great... just don't try telling me that it's better than a modern one (in subtle ways which I don't understand) 'cos it patently ain't! Depends on how one defines "better" I suppose.
Some may say a car is just a means from getting from A-B, others WILL understand why an old car may give the owner more "satisfaction". Anyway, this is really off topic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 22:13:21 GMT
From a personal point of view valves leave me cold and do not truly reproduce sounds they way they have been recorded.
However it is the individual person perspective which is important not mine
Jez you really do yourself no favours at all stop with the tunnel vision and try and understand why many people prefer valves to anything else (MODERATION: PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED)
Perhaps they like flawed but are more than happy with their sounds (PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED)
This is getting too close to pfm mentality
New balls please
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