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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 22:28:03 GMT
Ive heard valve amps sounding incredible, mediocre and awful. Same with transistor amps. I'm more interested in the reasons why outcomes might be variable, which is the point of the OP. I've had some good info on that score,
Valves and SS real have their devotees, but I really have no preference. For me it depends on the amp and what it's paired with.
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Post by Tim on Dec 29, 2015 23:12:14 GMT
There is more bollocks talked about hifi by "audiophiles" than by even a complete layman who once owned a tower system! Ah, I like this Jez and I totally agree Now I'm off to bed or to hide behind the sofa.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 29, 2015 23:13:37 GMT
I'm still custodian of a lovely pair of rebuilt Croft-modified Quad II's - I can't say they're mine, but I've had them eighteen years now.. They're coloured to hell and back with a character all their own, but my Gawd it's a glorious experience to enjoy music through them as long as the speakers are easy to drive. Lovely with Epos 14's using Naim A5 cables. Here's mine 'at work' in the mid 90's.. ...and a few years ago at hifi dave's place..
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Post by MartinT on Dec 29, 2015 23:17:47 GMT
I have heard only one SET amp that would not be blown out of the water by a NAD 3020. And that one would of course be much better if it had been push pull and used feedback. I am no SET fan but even so, that's an extraordinary statement! A SET amp can have a level of detail and delicacy, if not balls, that a NAD 3020 couldn't even dream about. Listening does not always equate with measurement.
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Post by DaveC on Dec 29, 2015 23:29:29 GMT
A SET amp can have a level of detail and delicacy, if not balls, that a NAD 3020 couldn't even dream about. Listening does not always equate with measurement.But in fact a good 300B SE and properly installed Klipschorns do measure well, with speed and transparency on classical music that is awsum. How many here expressing comments have heard such a system ?
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Post by MartinT on Dec 29, 2015 23:32:36 GMT
I've heard a good 300B driving Hornings and that was superb, although not for all music.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 29, 2015 23:39:33 GMT
High Fidelity to me is the closest approach to where the mastering engineer was at when the media was created.
That's a really concise and perfect definition, thank you. More than anything, a hi-fi system should get as close to the master tape/master recording as possible without adding or removing anything. It cannot go further back to the performance as that is the recording engineer's job. Like it, it should be brought in to many discussions where focus and clarity would help.
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Post by Greg on Dec 30, 2015 0:17:14 GMT
This has rapidly become a scare mungering thread (ATTACK REMOVED).
All of you are (ATTACK REMOVED) doing nothing to advance a better understanding of how to use valve amps. Furthermore, almost all speakers will happily work with any kind of valve amp regardless of them being SE or PP output.
(ATTACK REMOVED) Best thing is, if you like a valve sound, don't worry too much about your speakers. Most will work absolutely fine without any problems. If you question the sound, that is a different matter worth exploring, but there should be no suggestion anything might be unsafe. Such suggestion is absolutely out of order.
MODERATION: Personal attacks are not acceptable
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 0:19:22 GMT
From a personal point of view valves leave me cold and do not truly reproduce sounds they way they have been recorded. However it is the individual person perspective which is important not mine Jez you really do yourself no favours at all stop with the tunnel vision and try and understand why many people prefer valves to anything else (MODERATION: PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED)Perhaps they like flawed but are more than happy with their sounds (PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED)
This is getting too close to pfm mentality New balls please I both resent and disagree with that strongly. I answered a question on why, technically, different amps and specifically valve ones, could interact with speakers differently etc. I answered it accurately. If people don't like technical facts try re writing the laws of physics. I don't colour technical answers to suit peoples prejudices. I also said I like valves when used appropriately and use them myself. Your final comments are completely out of order and such ad hominem (PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED)
An apology would be appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 0:22:44 GMT
This has rapidly become a scare mungering thread (ATTACK REMOVED).All of you are (ATTACK REMOVED) doing nothing to advance a better understanding of how to use valve amps. Furthermore, almost all speakers will happily work with any kind of valve amp regardless of them being SE or PP output. (ATTACK REMOVED) Best thing is, if you like a valve sound, don't worry too much about your speakers. Most will work absolutely fine without any problems. If you question the sound, that is a different matter worth exploring, but there should be no suggestion anything might be unsafe. Such suggestion is absolutely out of order. (ATTACK REMOVED) Where did anyone suggest anything was unsafe? MODERATION: Personal attacks are not acceptable
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Post by MartinT on Dec 30, 2015 0:25:36 GMT
Careful now, everyone. There are several ad hominem comments here. If you disagree with the opinions, then disagree away. However, do not be calling the person names as it's disrespectful. We may need to clean this thread up if it goes on.
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 30, 2015 1:08:58 GMT
Well, I thought it went too far so I've removed the personal comments and attacks from all sides. If you don't like your posts being carved up, then you'll do better to keep within our few rules.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 5:09:40 GMT
Warning Will Robinson
Non compliant bio matter detected leakage, from out world possible infestation of bio dome
High profile decontamination procedure recommended
Now where's my Robin Hood outfit a non linear apparatus for chronological movement is requesting my presence
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Post by guy on Dec 30, 2015 9:57:14 GMT
Ive heard valve amps sounding incredible, mediocre and awful. Same with transistor amps. I'm more interested in the reasons why outcomes might be variable, which is the point of the OP. I've had some good info on that score, Valves and SS real have their devotees, but I really have no preference. For me it depends on the amp and what it's paired with. Very sensible post. My experience in main system is limited to Quad II's many years ago; Quantum, Onix, Naim and now NVA solid state. All have very different presentation but all have been very satisfying. I still have very happy memories of the Quads, late at night - bliss! perhaps the glow of the tubes helped set the mood?
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 30, 2015 10:18:35 GMT
Same old same old, yah boo sucks valves are crap, single ended triodes are not hi-fi, push - pull is best of a bad lot blah blah. Heard these arguments a million times.
The truth is that single ended triode amps can produce some of the most magical sound quality on planet earth. Undeniably, they are a specialist niche amplifiier, not for everyone, especially those with your average 87dB commercial speaker but for their afflicionados, and on the right speaker, nothing else will do. Respect needs to be afforded people who have made that personal decision, rather than scorn.
I myself, fell in love with SETs but as time went on and given my tastes for blues, soul, rock'n roll and Euro-Latin electronic lounge, I began to need something with a bit more heft and power, so I moved over to DIY, push-pull pentode amplifiers.
That has been a journey of discovery, during which I discovered the joys push-pull power pentodes with local feedback and the vital importance of power supplies.
99% of the criticism that people who are not valve lovers lay at the door of valve amps, ie too rounded, bloomy bass and rolled off treble, can be laid firmly at the door of the power supply. Powerful class AB valve amps with gaggles of tubes lined up in tiers across the front of the chassis and dirty great transformers at the back, may look impressive, and will be gloriously expensive, but will be a waste of time no matter how much global feedback band - aid they have.
It's THE POWER SUPPLY that makes or breaks the amp folks, not bling, fancy looking expensive tube rectifiers, or 10mm thick sculpted alloy faceplates I'm afraid. That goes (though for slightly different reasons) for both class AB pp and SET amps, which is why Nick's 300B SETs sound as superb as they do.
My pp pentode valve amp power supplies use high voltage Schottky diode, solid state bridge rectifiers, feeding choke input power supplies with thousands of microfarads of reservoir capacitance, such that when charged to 450V, they store 320J of energy. This makes them impervious to everything and they will maintain their voltage against large current swings without sagging. Such a power supply would strip and destroy a valve rectifier in seconds, but solid state rectification just laughs in the face of such demands. Also they have zener regulated, constant current source fed screen grid supplies, to keep the power and driver pentodes clamped solid against any spurious outside modulation.
Get one of these power supplies in your powerful push-pull pentode or ultralinear valve amp and you get the kind of bass slam that most valve amp users can only dream of. You get pace, rhythm, timing, speed accompanied by the sweetness in the treble that is usually only the preserve of SET amplifiers. This is nothing new and has been known about since the late Harvey Rosenberg added mega power supplies to his own valve amps, in the mid 1970s.
Commercial manufacturers won't do it. Power supplies aren't sexy and they cost money, which hits profit margins. Most people have never heard a valve amp with a proper power supply. Most people therefore don't know what they are missing.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 30, 2015 10:21:15 GMT
I think the thread title can be interpreted as trolling and invites the entrenched views (so I'm amending it). Surely most of us have heard solid state and valve kit enough to know that there are many different ways of achieving an audio outcome? Then it just boils down to preferences.
There is no need to call each other names just because you prefer one topology over the other!
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Post by MartinT on Dec 30, 2015 10:23:40 GMT
It's THE POWER SUPPLY that makes or breaks the amp folks To a large degree, I agree with this.
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Post by pre65 on Dec 30, 2015 10:26:51 GMT
I still have a pair of Quad 11 amps, modified as per Russ Andrews data sheet (before he became a purveyor of snake oil ) and to be honest they are now unused and unloved.
I do have what I consider to be a very good SET amp, although it is actually a pentode triode connected and directly heated filament, namely the Russian GK-71.
It has an Andrew Lehane (good friend of Nick Gorham) filament module which does make a positive difference to the overall sound.
I've not heard the 300b amp that Nick made for Gaz, but I understand it has a lot of solid state in the circuit. I hope to hear that, and a very special pentode push pull amp at the next Audio-Talk fest, an event well worth visiting if one can spare the time.
I won't mention my mighty 833a monoblocks as they are in pieces awaiting uprated transformers and filament supplies.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 30, 2015 10:31:48 GMT
I think it's time we see more project photos, Philip. Your builds are always a good read.
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steve
Rank: Trio
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Post by steve on Dec 30, 2015 10:47:02 GMT
You want some project photos Martin? Here's a couple of pics of my latest project, with various valves in it. I've got a couple of mono blocks of the same configuration in the pipeline, design work is almost complete. Just need to save up a bit of cash for some of the more expensive parts.
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