ynwan
Rank: Trio
Posts: 185
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Post by ynwan on Dec 8, 2015 19:50:19 GMT
I can't say I'm very impressed with the machining of the platter in question but this thread seems to have more to do with cross forum trolling than anything else. It's certainly more than passable (I simply assumed that is the finish achievable with ETP) and I tend to lay records on it to play, not look at it. Frankly, I only care about how it sounds and it's better than the Mike New aluminium platter with Achromat that I had previously. An extremely fine turned finish is achievable with ETP and isn't hard to achieve. If I had achieved the finish that the platter Dave Cawley has I would face it off again with a sharper cutter or different cutting angle as I know I can achieve much better (and have done many times). If it had the kind of dimensional machining errors it exhibits I would definitely check the lathe alignment and certainly wouldn't accept it.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 8, 2015 20:58:40 GMT
Dave You may have been mixing with bad company. QC and finish WAS a weakness at Pink Triangle, and as you say, in large part that was due to trying to meet a competitors price point using much higher component cost.(The original PT - subject of most of the complaints - launched for £300 to meet the LP12 head on. The sheet aerolam and unmachined acrylic probably cost more than all of the components in the LP12. The motor was 5 times the price) Putting the price up to levels commensurate with the additional material costs enabled the finish and QC to match QC and finish at early PT has been exaggerated by legend. I have an early PT on the shelf here at home, and use it every day. It is not a bag of nails, and is still working 30 or more years on with a new bearing and maybe half a dozen belts. It was typical of hundreds I saw personally. There were too many bad ones, but for the millionth time, stop exaggerating. The complaint was that the edge of the aerolam was left as a bare cut - like the sub-chassis in my turntable. Its not scruffy or bodged or badly cut. It just has a bare edge - in the same way that if you made something from corrugated cardboard you would see that corrugated edge - you can peer into the structure. You can't see that in normal use - only when you take the TT apart (you can see it when changing an arm, but not when playing a record). It would be possible to finish that better, by adding an edging strip to hide the corrugations. Doing so "muffles" the sub-chassis. A PT works by channelling energy into the sub-chassis where it is dissipated (it sings - you can put a mike in there and listen to it). Blocking the edges of the sub-chassis spoils that. The "uber quality" Anniversary, oft cited as an example of PT improved finish, painted it black (nextel) but left the edges crinkly Unless, of course, you or your friends know better Pinky, I refer to personal experience of the brand almost since it started. Nothing wrong with the edge of the sub-chassis being exposed, but I refer to rough cutting out on early samples that belied the high price being asked and sort-of spoiled it for the likes of me, fitting tonearms and setting up cartridges. Later decks' sub chassis' were beautifully cut out, so no complaints from me then. Sonics were never disputed and I was never so into the LP12 that I 'automatically' dismissed the competition, as many ignorant Linn dealers did. I had some really good friends, reviewers and industry professionals to try to keep me (sort of) on an even keel - not sure they succeeded though...
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Post by pre65 on Dec 8, 2015 22:15:53 GMT
I have always felt that Dsjr gives an honest, and unbiased view of things derived from his love of hi-fi and relevant experience in the hi-fi selling arena.
As well as honest and unbiased, I find the vast majority of his posts interesting.
Keep it up me lad.
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 9, 2015 8:05:11 GMT
It's still just one person's view. Others with experience will have valid alternative opinions. I'm not sure that Dave really gets that.
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Post by AlanS on Dec 9, 2015 8:12:16 GMT
I read some condescending, patronising postings. Not very pleasant reading when someone does that.
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Post by DaveC on Dec 9, 2015 10:11:48 GMT
My photo of the platter on the last page was taken in natural daylight very close to a window. No great issue anyway.
Also, when warmed up the next day, the bearing recovered to the usual MN high drag mode.
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Post by DaveC on Dec 9, 2015 14:49:37 GMT
I have now measured "run out" (wobble) on the Mike New ETP, and a standard Technics platter on the same turntable, and also as a reference a SME Model 10.
I have measured the drag by means of current drawn on the Mike New bearing, now that it has warmed up it is similar to other MN bearings. The supplied Paul Hynes PSU in the context of a PSU for a SL-1200 is good, I have not measured anything else on the PSU.
It is true that I sell similar products, but I am also one of very few people who can actually measure things. So far I have only commented on the bearing drag when cold and the surface finish of the platter, and I stand by those comments which I believe are true.
There is nothing controversial in my measurements at all, however due to a self appointed solicitor with a beef, on another forum, I am not releasing the results. Also I don't want to prolong or drag out this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 14:56:29 GMT
I would suggest you are the only person who can measure this, being the new owner of the SL1210 in question.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 9, 2015 15:13:01 GMT
I read some condescending, patronising postings. Not very pleasant reading when someone does that. From me?
Oh...
Apologies...
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Post by John on Dec 9, 2015 16:02:31 GMT
Hard for me to comment on this thread as no real experience of the 1210 except being impressed how well fully modified one sounds. What I do dislike is the way forums can build someone up and then knock them down again. I enjoy bespoke HIFI. A lot of my system is small cottage industry but I do not expect the same degree of quality control. What I find is that I get is an indualivised service with great correspondence and after sales support (Transfi and Hawthorne) I cannot comment on MN I never dealt with the guy. Just a shame to see someone who has provided products a lot of the early users really liked going through such tough times and I hope he manages to sort out the issues with those that are not satisfied.
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Post by AlanS on Dec 9, 2015 16:09:23 GMT
I read some condescending, patronising postings. Not very pleasant reading when someone does that. From me?
Oh...
Apologies...
Not you Dave. The other pair snipping your posts.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 9, 2015 16:46:30 GMT
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Post by canetoad on Dec 10, 2015 5:57:11 GMT
I have now measured "run out" (wobble) on the Mike New ETP, and a standard Technics platter on the same turntable, and also as a reference a SME Model 10. I have measured the drag by means of current drawn on the Mike New bearing, now that it has warmed up it is similar to other MN bearings. The supplied Paul Hynes PSU in the context of a PSU for a SL-1200 is good, I have not measured anything else on the PSU. It is true that I sell similar products, but I am also one of very few people who can actually measure things. So far I have only commented on the bearing drag when cold and the surface finish of the platter, and I stand by those comments which I believe are true. There is nothing controversial in my measurements at all, however due to a self appointed solicitor with a beef, on another forum, I am not releasing the results. Also I don't want to prolong or drag out this thread. Why mention it at all if you're not going to share the information? Sure you don't have an axe to grind?
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Post by AlanS on Dec 10, 2015 11:31:22 GMT
For those who do not go to AoS. Mike New has given up due to storms
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 18:08:37 GMT
It's probably ill advised for me to comment on this... but as I have a lifelong habit of saying ill advised things and feel very strongly about this subject.... here goes. Both myself, John Wood and now Mike New have found themselves falling foul of web forum based destruction of our reputations and I do believe there is a degree of "witch hunt" about all this. On AOS this morning a member has announced that he is leaving due to "Jez Arkless, John Wood and Mike New issues" (or words to that effect). So far he has not elaborated but I'm guessing his issue is that all three of us were not taken outside and ritually beheaded as soon as even one person said they were less than 101% happy! If you are dealing with a one man band then there are advantages to that... and also certain disadvantages. Obviously you get to discuss your requirements, and any customisation you may want, directly with the designer (you deal with the organ grinder not the monkey) and can often have special mods made to your requirements. You can often also get levels of sound quality that the likes of Naim, Linn etc can't provide, and at a lower price to boot! Disadvantages? well fairly obvious really. If the owner/one man band (OMB) becomes ill, is run over whatever then there is no one to keep things going. If I break both legs after being run over and I'm in traction for 4 months then there's nowt I you or anyone else can do about that... it's not like there are other staff who can be moved temporarily to replace the OMB whilst ill. A delay of 4 - 7 months would prevail. The thing that boils my piss is some people would it seems take the attitude that EVEN in the latter circumstances, "it's not my problem that you've been run over. What you going to do about my order? I ain't going to wait for it". Some people don't give a **** that "Acme hi fi" or whatever is a person, a human being and this is their livelihood... that their reputation that took years to make has been destroyed by their complaint. Believe it or not folks there is very little money to be made from this industry. Hi Fi is a small minority hobby/pastime/obsession and unless you are a big company (by UK hi fi industry standards) you will be lucky to make the minimum wage when averaged out over a year... the UK minimum wage would be wealth beyond my dreams lately!. Now in my case the issues were never with problems with the quality of the supplied goods (nothing but rave reviews in fact. Do the Googling yourself) but with problems I had with meeting delivery times, and largely caused by lack of sufficient incoming work meaning I couldn't buy the raw materials. When complaints were made publicly this brought incoming work down to pretty much zero and therefore the situation became a runaway snowball... It's now sorted and people have their goods. I'm also doing everything humanly possible to ensure the problem is never repeated. In spite of this it's obvious that my reputation has been harmed very seriously and possibly permanently. In the case of John Wood well I don't know every detail but it has been made clear to me that there was never in fact any issue with the valve amp that the customer was complaining about.... With Mike New well again obviously I don't know his personal circumstances but has anyone really received goods that don't do what they are supposed to do? It seems to me (and sorry if I've got any of this wrong) that there has been some very small runout, that is insufficient to cause any audible issue, and that there are a few machining marks on the platter, but that it does what it says on the tin and improves on the SQ of the original platter as it's supposed to do. Now it may well be that the cost of materials used in making the platter, combined with the time taken to machine it are such that he can't just throw out a perfectly acceptable platter just because it is not 100% visually perfect. A big company would likely have sufficient wealth to be able to make a loss of many thousands on not just one but maybe a whole batch of a product and all just because lets say the paint on the REAR panel doesn't quite colour match the rest. Their reputation then remains intact. A OMB usually can't do this. The loss involved with having to "skip" just one or two units may wipe them out! Obviously my comments are from "the other side of the fence", as a manufacturer rather than as a customer, and may draw forth some vitriol, (I believe I'm supposed to say that the customer is 100% right, 100% of the time, and no matter what the circumstances!) but in these sort of issues I have seen so many people who are not even "stake holders" donning their "keyboard warrior" hat and obviously thoroughly relishing doing everything they can to destroy the reputation and livelihood of someone they have never even spoke to, or had correspondence with, never mind having done business with them or having met them and I think it stinks to high heaven!! Obviously a paying customer is a different matter but even then I must say that I have had one say to me that "I'm not a friend of yours but a customer and I don't give a **** what happens to you, whether you live or die, whether you eat this week or not. I want delivery by "X" date or else"... I'll erm... reserve from further comment on that... Where's this rant going? What's the point of it? I guess I'm trying to put things from a OMB's POV and to point out that we OMB companies are only human. It feels like we OMB's are required to deliver 100% perfection 100% of the time and as soon as anything happens to spoil that we are finished.... death by a thousand fora posts Yes mistakes and errors of judgement are bound to happen eventually, but give us a break guys! Any issues should of course be dealt with and put right as soon as possible and as well as possible, but a OMB does not have the resources of a Linn or a Denon and it may well be beyond their control to do anything about it right now or to give a 100% refund without question.... I myself have been in a position where I can either buy the parts to deliver a job at the promised time OR pay the rent and keep a roof over my head... but not both.... Well what would you do if you found yourself in such a position? The big boys in the game like Linn, Naim, Quad etc etc were lucky enough (in hindsight) to enter the market at a time when there were no computers, mobile phones, mp3 players, sky tv etc and hi fi was a rapidly growing market in which they had comparatively few competitors. It's very different these days! They all began as OMB's as well (ok not Linn) but if they had made any mistakes there was also no internet to enable their reputations to be trashed internationally and in minutes
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Post by MartinT on Dec 10, 2015 19:11:56 GMT
Thank you, Jez, that's an honest and insightful piece from someone who has been in a similar position to Mike New and I appreciate it. We have grown used to apparent quality over real quality when being quick to condemn a product without having experienced it directly. Without commenting on yours or the others' personal circumstances, I do want this debate to conclude as I have seen no evidence forwarded by any member here of shoddy workmanship by Mike New, while there are two of us who have had nothing but aural pleasure from one of his ETP platters. I took a photo of my ETP just now to make the point of apparent versus real product quality. Take a look at it and get outraged by the apparently poor workmanship, like some of the frothing at the mouth going on elsewhere. Now let me tell you that it looks NOTHING like this in real life! The surface sheen looks smooth and the deadness of the material is quite apparent. It looks flat black in any light I have at my disposal in my listening room and the dust is near invisible. Only the harshness of the camera's flash makes it look like this. When placed on the MN bearing it is stable, flat, does not rock and runs straight and true. I applied some petroleum jelly to the taper as Mike advised, because there is a danger of the two locking, making the platter very hard to remove. It also runs with extreme pitch stability, a factor that has remained unmentioned. Why? Because Mike has had to create and integrate the speed pulse feedback cog which is critical to providing timing feedback into the direct drive motor electronics. I've had two competitors ask me about where they can obtain these cogs from and the only advice I could give them was to buy the complete Technics platter and attempt to remove them. Not exactly cost effective and I'll save their blushes. Mike has precision machined his - I know because I have compared his design with the Technics original and they are not the same. Only an engineer could appreciate this subtlety while others probably think it's just a lump of plastic with a funny looking gear on the underside. For the cost of around £600, I was and remain very pleased with the ETP's performance, it has given me tremendous pleasure and has taken my SL-1210 performance level to far in excess of the total cost of the base deck, arm, cartridge and all the mods I have applied. So many times I have read, by someone who has never heard my deck, why I bothered and didn't just buy a Michell/Linn/Townsend/Pick your own deck instead. You would need to hear it to get the answer to that one. So unless anyone can submit something new to this debate, I suggest we all calm down a little, put on some good music and discard this storm in an egg cup. What I won't tolerate any further is second-hand hearsay from anyone with an axe to grind.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 10, 2015 19:16:21 GMT
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 10, 2015 19:34:13 GMT
Why people have to bring up their dissatisfaction with a manufacturer or trader on a public forum before they take it up with the other party, I will never know. These things should be dealt with directly or not at all and, for me, that goes for both customer and seller. They hardly ever end well when conducted in public. An onlooker or competitor bringing it up again on a completely different forum? Well, I find it hard to believe that there are not agendas being excercised other than concern for a fellow enthusiast.
Baggage guys. Baggage. Keep it off TAS please.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 21:21:30 GMT
Head in the sand attitude all round here. As far as the platters I have seen are concerned - While the machining of the surface is not up to Michell standard I and most others would put up with this minor cosmetic problem. The real issues were twofold - firstly platters that were not even and played with a not inconsiderable wobble and secondly platters that won't fit over the bearing correctly and rock. Pictorial evidence has been posted on this forum AOS and HFS. Surely these faults are not acceptable and show a lack of care and quality control. Quite a few 'experts' in cutting polymer have commented on the technique used to produce an accurate platter and it would appear that this has not been followed on the makers own admission. Mistakes happen but if a product is unacceptable the maker should do everything to put matters right. Also I believe the complainants resorted to posting on forums after they got nowhere in addressing the issues with the manufacturer. So far the manufacturer has failed to recognise there is a problem and address the concerns of the dissatisfied customers.
This is rather different to the Jez case were delays in manufacturing after taking money up front was involved. Unfortunately Jez's excuses didn't ring true as he had the money but used it for other expenses even though to him they may have been essential for day to day living. Most of the cost of his phono mods is in fact time and labour which costs him nothing (though he has to earn to cover the time spent). So the parts are a relatively small item that could have been bought if some money kept aside. Mistakes are forgivable if things are put right and Jez has come clean and sorted the problem. He now has satisfied customers I presume and can continue in business. I can't see his problems are really comparable to the MN situation were people paid large amounts for faulty goods and the producer appears to be indifferent to putting things right. Martin because your platter is all right doesn't mean others complaints are unreasonable and the machining marks are not the real issue in terms of fit for purpose even though one would not be pedantic to expect a better standard.
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 10, 2015 21:34:01 GMT
Heads in the sand? I hardly think so. What exactly are you trying to achieve with this evangelistic consumer crusade that you have brought to TAS?
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