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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 10:13:39 GMT
As some may know I am in the process of restoring a Garrard 401 - as my knowledge of arms is limited, could someone in layman's terms detail a few pointers in relation to a 9" or 12" tonearm, as I am contemplating a 12". Are there any obvious things to consider and any generally accepted differences, or is it like most things, down to personal choice?
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Post by ChrisB on Jun 27, 2014 10:29:11 GMT
Consider the cost that will be incurred by requiring more acreage in your plinth!
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2014 11:27:50 GMT
My very short take: 9" better dynamics and slam, possibility of hearing end of side distortion (although I think it's often overstated); 12" better sense of space and soundstage, more relaxed insight, won't sound as 'fast'.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 27, 2014 11:58:39 GMT
For the space required I'm happy with 9"
Would you consider fitting both ?
We know a man who could help
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 14:03:21 GMT
My very short take: 9" better dynamics and slam, possibility of hearing end of side distortion (although I think it's often overstated); 12" better sense of space and soundstage, more relaxed insight, won't sound as 'fast'. Thanks guys, real estate size isn't really going to be that much of an issue and I have read this kind of statement before Martin *12" better sense of space and soundstage, more relaxed insight, won't sound as 'fast'* which actually appeals more to my style of listening and I trust your judgement. I am also leaning more toward a slate plinth, so the 12" to my logic would/should be more suitable for my ears than a 9" arm|slate combo. I'm thinking a Jelco 750L at the moment. Fitting both? Not really an option Mike, a deck with two arms does not appeal aesthetically and as I'm not OCD about vinyl its not really something that would interest me. Once I get the 401 finished it will be fit and forget and I don't envisage much tinkering at all, if it works and sounds good that will be it and I expect it will outlast me
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2014 14:07:45 GMT
I think, knowing your tastes Tim, that a 12" arm will please you. There are plenty on the used market but purchase with care as the state of the bearings is critical to success. If you are as lucky as Mike and bag a nice 12" Fidelity Research for peanuts you may hear a scream coming from the direction of Basingrad!
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 27, 2014 14:41:03 GMT
Yes. I think you need to be in the OCD direction for 2 arms. Not my choice either. I've upgraded a lot recently and now feel happy with the sound of what I have. Play music is my goal after a few more tweaks to tidy up and finish off
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 27, 2014 14:43:25 GMT
I think, knowing your tastes Tim, that a 12" arm will please you. There are plenty on the used market but purchase with care as the state of the bearings is critical to success. If you are as lucky as Mike and bag a nice 12" Fidelity Research for peanuts you may hear a scream coming from the direction of Basingrad! Twas that Martin bloke that alerted me to the FR. I knew the name but not the reputation so well. Comparing it to the Jelco convinced me it is a superb arm. It seems a superbly well made item
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Post by pinkie on Jun 27, 2014 15:02:14 GMT
My very short take: 9" better dynamics and slam, possibility of hearing end of side distortion (although I think it's often overstated); 12" better sense of space and soundstage, more relaxed insight, won't sound as 'fast'. That's fair for a short take. My own was 12" Pro - reduced tracing distortion especially near the centre. That is a given of the geometry. Cons - potentially higher effective mass and less rigidity. Effective mass may not be a bad thing - a higher effective mass will suit most moving coil cartridges. Less rigidity generally is not a good thing. Obviously you need a plinth that suits, and given I am sticking to my old PT for nostalgia reasons (as well as some more sound musical ones) 12" isn't an option personally. But Funk do a 12" FXR, which I have heard mounted on a Vector TT down there, and it sounds like a 9" FXR to me (I ought to have been saying it sounds like a 9" but better because of reduced distortion at the centre of the record, but I wasn't particularly aware of it, and I am sensitive to that sort of thing. Perhaps we took more care over setup on the 9")
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 15:05:55 GMT
Play music is my goal . . . That's all its about for me Mike, I'm just a simpleton that enjoys music, live or recorded is all I need to keep me happy. How can that be Martin, vinyl playback is so much more accurate, especially compared to digital
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Post by pinkie on Jun 27, 2014 15:53:06 GMT
How can that be Martin, vinyl playback is so much more accurate, especially compared to digital Leaving aside analogue digital for the minute, distortion towards the centre of a record is a simple matter of geometry. The record is cut with a cutting stylus which is driven in a straight line across the vinyl. It's a parallel tracker from edge to centre. To play the record back properly, the cartridge needs to be held parallel on replay too. In this respect parallel trackers are far superior arms (they also avoid the need for anti-skate) However, parallel trackers have problems of their own - including bearing drag, and problems of structural integrity, mounting on beautiful PT turntables, and others, so most of us have a pivot. With a pivoted arm the set up has an overhang (the stylus tip goes past the hole in the middle) and an offset - either from an S shaped arm or an offset headshell, which tries to ensure that the cartridge is nearly parallel across the record from edge to centre, but is only actually accurate at one (or maybe 2) points and is "near as dammit" the rest of the way. It is rather less than "near as dammit" towards the centre. And that should be audible.
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Jun 27, 2014 18:18:01 GMT
My very short take: 9" better dynamics and slam, possibility of hearing end of side distortion (although I think it's often overstated); 12" better sense of space and soundstage, more relaxed insight, won't sound as 'fast'. +1. 12" arms can sometimes also have better bass, but IME, at the expense of some 'fun factor'. Marco.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2014 18:24:09 GMT
How can that be Martin, vinyl playback is so much more accurate, especially compared to digital Sarcasm alert!
I'm neutral in this as I think both vinyl and optical spinny things have their merits and, as I've said before, I'm really happy playing both
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 18:56:25 GMT
Sarcasm alert!
I'm neutral in this as I think both vinyl and optical spinny things have their merits and, as I've said before, I'm really happy playing both
Haha, spoken like a true gent - I will be happy playing both too
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 27, 2014 19:05:06 GMT
I had a 401 for many years, various arms were in residence but I ended up with a 12" Jelco finally before I sold it, it depends how big your plinth is I suppose as small ones won't take a 12" arm, there is a 10" if you already have a platter then it may be just a case of cutting a new armboard for it. The 12" SME is great 3012 I think it is if not mistaken, some come up on ebay now and then.
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 19:16:55 GMT
I had a 401 for many years, various arms were in residence but I ended up with a 12" Jelco finally before I sold it, it depends how big your plinth is I suppose as small ones won't take a 12" arm I have a local stonemason who can cut me a plinth to order David, the current plinth (old style original 401/3009 wooden box) will be obsolete. The 750L is what I am leaning toward at the mo', I know that's sacrilege to some purists but I think for what I want a new arm is probably a better bet - we shall see, as I'm still at the drawing board stage. I may even put an RB303 on there, which I'm sure will make many cringe!
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 27, 2014 19:21:38 GMT
I think an arm with a detachable headshell is very useful, spare headshells can have other carts on to allow easy changing of carts when the mood takes you.
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2014 19:28:22 GMT
I think an arm with a detachable headshell is very useful, spare headshells can have other carts on to allow easy changing of carts when the mood takes you. That's my dilemma, do I put myself at the mercy of temptation by swapping and changing carts, or go the fit and forget route, which for me is probably the more sensible path - but I do accept a removable headshell has benefits. My last TT had one, but to be honest I didn't play around much with it.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2014 19:38:20 GMT
It does have benefits but you won't find yourself swapping cartridges too often. Saying that, when you do it's a pain in a fixed headshell arm and puts the bearings more at risk.
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 27, 2014 19:42:08 GMT
A garrard 401 needs a good arm for sure, whether removable headshell or not. Not a Rega IMO though!
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