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Post by dvh on Jul 7, 2015 8:33:42 GMT
And look at what else is out there. The current HiFi+ reviews the iFi Audio Retro Music System. This is an valve-powered integrated amp which features a user-configurable mm/mc phono stage, with six different EQ settings, plus mini speakers, all for £1,650.
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jul 7, 2015 8:50:05 GMT
If you couldn't sell the head amp, then I'm not sure about a phono stage. What I do know is that you shouldn't skimp on casework. No-one wants to pay, say, £500 for a component and have it presented in cheap folded steel. This is where the head amp fell down, in my opinion. Martin is right I'm afraid, the market these days just will not tolerate a component built into a 1960's project box - it doesn't matter how good the design is. The only possible exception would be if you had an international reputation running over many years - even then it would put many off. I wouldn't personally consider making a £400 MM only stage unless you repackaged your step-up to match. Despite what forums may suggest, most people with MM carts are looking to move to MC and often see the MM phonostage as a stop-gap. For them £400 is too much and there are at least eight cheaper alternative stages from more well known makes in smart cases. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 8:58:34 GMT
Indeed with all the group buys on Pink Fish for quality enclosures should not be too difficult to find a suitable environment to put one in.
Also remember CE testing, self certification is all very well. Many CE testing houses are very helpful these days.
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jul 7, 2015 8:59:24 GMT
Marco brought it over, I assume you had loaned it to him? At the time, I thought it was very good but lacking the ultimate resolution of the Paul Hynes experimental phono stage we had at the time. It was certainly the equal of the Whest I was using then but I don't think it was good enough to match the Aurorasound I'm using now. I didn't realise you used a Vida, of got one on loan at the minute. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 9:08:59 GMT
The Whest, lots of detail, dynamics just no soul imho
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jul 7, 2015 9:42:53 GMT
Yes, that's what I've heard of them - sounds very like the Linn Uphorik I tried.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2015 10:14:18 GMT
The VIDA makes music, the Whest made a nice sound. The VIDA has a great deal of soul but is in no way warm or lush. Fantastic detail, presentation and soundstage. Musical above all else.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 11:43:05 GMT
Just a few points folks.... first of all I have already been doing the marketing/demonstration by sending a unit around interested potential customers, on the basis that they pay the postage and send it on, for several years and was doing it before Firebottle.
Second, although the head amp exists at the moment in a very basic case (and yes if someone had wanted to buy it in that form I would have said "OK"), even I had no intention of that being the finished product! It was a case which I considered looked not too bad and was just to house the innards so it could travel round the country for potential customers to hear it. It was not in its ultimate form as regards sound quality either... rather an honest version of what I could do for £800 or so. I have another head amp here which is all valve and does beat the one we have been discussing, made for my own use only it would not be suitable as a product as it would be far too expensive and it's too fussy about valves, which is why there are hardly any all valve MC phono stages that don't use a SUT. Think in terms of having to get 20 best quality valves to pick out the four quietest ones!
What I want to do really is make something to rival or beat the likes of the Aurorasound vida for about half the price! I have no doubt that I can do this, as I say, selling any is the difficult bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 12:14:07 GMT
Just an observation Jez
If you have trying this method for a few years and you still have no discernible sales under your belt, perhaps time to try a different approach?
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Post by John on Jul 7, 2015 12:26:09 GMT
I think if you wanting to sell to high end market it needs to look high end, no way around it I suggest like a few people for this kind of price you might get a few people interested but from a forum there is a limit to this type of market.
Getting good reviews will help for sure.
Maybe you could go into partnership with someone who has more contacts so able to market this. Swings and roundabouts to this approach and would totally understand it if that did not appeal.
I like where you wanting to pitch the phono stage
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jul 7, 2015 12:41:00 GMT
In my experience people struggle to see beyond the outer case. From an engineering point of view it's fine to say 'here is a fully functional design just not in the finished party dress' but all people see is the ugly outer and just don't seem to be able to put that aside. Also, they have zero imagination as to what it may look like and even a CAD model often fails to do the job. You really have to present them with the completed item and that's just to get it considered for purchase - it doesn't guarantee any sales.
With respect, you are basically underfunded. This is the reason many similar companies are partnerships, partly funding and partly so that each can do what they are best at, selling or designing. Unfortunately, good designs do not sell themselves (as you know). I realise you don't want to go into partnership with anyone but it's an exceedingly difficult path to tread on your own and, I think, impossible without funds.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 15:57:53 GMT
And look at what else is out there. The current HiFi+ reviews the iFi Audio Retro Music System. This is an valve-powered integrated amp which features a user-configurable mm/mc phono stage, with six different EQ settings, plus mini speakers, all for £1,650. It will be made in China and crap for that money. It's not a competitor. How about Naim NAP250. Average (at best) 2 channel power amp in plain rectangular box for £3400... |
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jul 7, 2015 16:28:24 GMT
Which of your designs has been more successful?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:31:21 GMT
Totally irrelevant. Taylor Swift is incredibly successful but so crap I wood rather microwave my own head than listen to any of her "music"...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:41:14 GMT
I would dearly love to comment on all this specialised phonostage malarky but ill refrain from it. I will say that i own a cheapo but well know branded Phono stage & also still have a very expensive Branded Phono stage. Guess which is the better  |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 7, 2015 16:42:31 GMT
And look at what else is out there. The current HiFi+ reviews the iFi Audio Retro Music System. This is an valve-powered integrated amp which features a user-configurable mm/mc phono stage, with six different EQ settings, plus mini speakers, all for £1,650. It will be made in China and crap for that money. It's not a competitor. How about Naim NAP250. Average (at best) 2 channel power amp in plain rectangular box for £3400... Like Coke TM it has a NAIM. And a huge committed dealer network  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:54:22 GMT
It will be made in China and crap for that money. It's not a competitor. How about Naim NAP250. Average (at best) 2 channel power amp in plain rectangular box for £3400... Like Coke TM it has a NAIM. And a huge committed dealer network Indeed. It doesn't mean it's any good though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:56:15 GMT
I would dearly love to comment on all this specialised phonostage malarky but ill refrain from it. I will say that i own a cheapo but well know branded Phono stage & also still have a very expensive Branded Phono stage. Guess which is the better If you check out reviews for the Arkless 640P people compare it favourably with stages at £1000. The basic model costs £170 (plus you need a donor Cambridge Audio 640P) |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 7, 2015 17:13:27 GMT
I know Jez - and I bet you are fed up with what seems like a stream of negativity when you want to rush out and save the world with a brilliant new design. But it is like bashing your head against a brick wall - and people like what they are used to and what is cozy and familiar -like a BIG brand like NAIM, or a forum favourite like Jelco. The number of times I see people on forums earnestly discuss the merits of the arms they know, and dismiss the ones (like the F5) which they don't
Hot towels, and a life outside forums is the answer. And in my case, cos its not my living, just remember its only a bloody record player and just not that important. Not an option for you, I appreciate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 17:53:56 GMT
I know Jez - and I bet you are fed up with what seems like a stream of negativity when you want to rush out and save the world with a brilliant new design. But it is like bashing your head against a brick wall - and people like what they are used to and what is cozy and familiar -like a BIG brand like NAIM, or a forum favourite like Jelco. The number of times I see people on forums earnestly discuss the merits of the arms they know, and dismiss the ones (like the F5) which they don't Hot towels, and a life outside forums is the answer. And in my case, cos its not my living, just remember its only a bloody record player and just not that important. Not an option for you, I appreciate.     Well put! Well I've just started "breadboarding" the more expensive option.... many, many hours work before I get to hear it... if it passes all the measurements ok of course. I'd make much more money fitting new valves to peoples Marshall guitar amps... (I know. I still do it now and then) but it just doesn't do it for me! |
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