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Post by dvh on Jun 23, 2015 15:09:04 GMT
People take it all so bloody seriously. Fair enough if it's your livelihood, but for most of us it's just a bunch of boxes and wires to play music through, and yet we get feuds that rival the Montagues and Capulets.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 15:19:01 GMT
Here is my take on why some people hear difference and some people do not 1) We all have different sensory processing abilities. I work in the field of autism where this is more extreme 2) Our way of thinking is varied. So our belief and value base is different 3) The system and room will be different 4) I accept there maybe some degree of expectation biasi but also suggest that expectation bias can work both ways You'll not be surprised to learn that IMHO it's all expectation bias  |
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 23, 2015 15:23:41 GMT
Here is my take on why some people hear difference and some people do not 1) We all have different sensory processing abilities. I work in the field of autism where this is more extreme 2) Our way of thinking is varied. So our belief and value base is different 3) The system and room will be different 4) I accept there maybe some degree of expectation biasi but also suggest that expectation bias can work both ways You'll not be surprised to learn that IMHO it's all expectation bias Not for the other half She has no idea what I'm doing, and cares little. Big comparing session on Sunday she was knitting Responses ranged from Don't think I can hear any difference to Oh that is so much (whatever she heard on that example) |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 15:57:32 GMT
DC offset in the country is a real problem has been for years.
Jez will tell you that a properly designed amplifier should really contain a full dc blocking circuit as standard.
Along with a solid back emf/rfi filter array (X/Y caps appropriate value for the application), potted and shielded transformer, ultra soft recovery low noise diodes, high ripple current rejection and low esr capacitors, short circuit pathways etc. electromagnetic and RFI reduction and control designed casework and seals. Then CE compliance.
UK mains also contains other artifacts as well as DC offset, common mode, HF harmonics inducted noise from RF devices like Lan networks, mobile phones, computer psu, set top boxes, lighting Florescent and LED)
Dirty electricity is high frequency voltage transients on the mains supply. It is high frequency voltage transients riding along the 50 Hz electricity supply. It is generated by arcing, by sparking and by any device that interrupts current flow, especially switching power supplies. These transients are largely by products of modern energy efficient electronics and appliances, such as computers, refrigerators, plasma TVs, Sky boxes, DVD players, video (hard disk) recorders, compact fluorescent light bulbs and dimmer switches, which tamp down the electricity
they use. They can also enter the home through wiring from nearby sources including wireless
telecommunication antennas connected to the power grid. When the capacity of the primary neutral on distribution lines is exceeded, current runs along the ground and enters homes via grounded water pipes. Transients are created when
current is repeatedly interrupted. This manipulation of current creates a wildly fluctuating and potentially dangerous electromagnetic field that not only radiates into the immediate environment but also can back up along home or office wiring. The repeated interruption can also be caused, especially in rural areas, by branches resting on power lines, causing arcing. Investigating this could be worthwhile, and reporting it if you see it.
In these days of cutbacks it is still possible the local electricity company will take no action until the supply fails.
Two of the biggest culprits are switch mode power supplies (AC adapters) and energy efficient(particularly lighting) products such as low energy light bulbs (CFLs)and dimmer switches. These cause high frequency signals to be created and then carried around your house wiring.
All mobile phone base stations operate on DC power supplies, which is powered from the electricity
supply AC current by switching power supplies. These interrupt the AC current and create high voltage transients which get back into the grid and travel through the local mains grid wires in the neighborhood your are living
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Post by John on Jun 23, 2015 16:04:19 GMT
You'll not be surprised to learn that IMHO it's all expectation bias Not for the other half She has no idea what I'm doing, and cares little. Big comparing session on Sunday she was knitting Responses ranged from Don't think I can hear any difference to Oh that is so much (whatever she heard on that example) Yes Jez but just remember expectation bias works the other way too. I know I will not hear no difference therefore I hear no difference |
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Post by AlanS on Jun 23, 2015 16:28:05 GMT
I gave up the will to live searching that page, cannot be doing with Pinkies efforts. If it makes you happy to believe that then there you go. My big three are the three forums I quoted |
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Post by pinkie on Jun 23, 2015 17:40:58 GMT
Where to join back in. (and - now I am no longer a fresh virgin on these forums, how to avoid a pointless circular argument) Jez - you are preaching to the converted. I try to be less "in your face" with expressing those views, mainly because I know my limitations technically. My interest in "mains coaching" was not so much to explore why a fuse won't affect the DC delivered by a proper power supply - it was more a lifelong battle with hum, that has me wondering whether low level inaudible hum is a factor I need to address. Long story for another thread maybe - but Mr Jones arrives Saturday and I will once again take it up with him. As discussed I may try signal cable transformers as ground loop breakers. (That, and a frustration with what I learned about balanced power supplies and how they work (or don't) in pursuing the safety aspects ages ago on this forum) John (and Martin) - you are quite right about the possibility of expectation bias working the other way. However, if I can't hear a difference, I am in no position to establish whether that is expectation bias, my systems limitations, my hearing, or laziness (poor concentration). We who can't hear it are categorically unable to prove it isnt real. But the inverse is true. You who could hear it can demonstrate (if you choose) that you can hear it without having to know what you are listening to (the much feared "blind" scenario) and establish conclusively that the phenomena is real . It is not incumbent on you to do so. I perfectly understand why you would just enjoy what you have without a need to prove anything. But because of expectation bias - only one side could conclusively prove anything. And that would be a blind test by someone who can hear the differences. For those of us who can't hear, and either understand (Jez) or sort of get it (me) why it doesn't work that way - our expectation bias matches our experience. ( I did try some MCRU cables, and since fuses came with the deal, the fuses too) Martin - I am interested to hear what you have considered as possible explanations for the difference a fuse makes. My guest this weekend has a batchelors honours degree, masters, and PHD in the subject, so it would be interesting to put some ideas to him TonyC - yes, I am aware of the many sources of noise on mains. That doesn't mean changing a fuse does anything about that noise background. And it brings me back to the realisation that the noise is at least as likely to be affecting the signal as it is the "juice" feeding dc to a device. And so understanding how the noise gets into the signal, and how to stop it is of great interest, not foo, and directly relevant to the dimmer buzz I heard on the AV channel the other night and my interest in signal line transformers. The fact that there is noise present doesn't mean there is a causal relationship with power supply performance. The DC offset on my mains is intermittent. The transformer buzz has ceased - and the DC blocking cable hasnt arrived yet. If it had arrived, and the noise had stopped simultaneously - I might have concluded the reason was the efficacy of the blocker, and not the fact that the DC was no longer present. Interestingly, if I have got it right, Owens new power supply ideas that he is developing, are much lower noise than conventional SMPS or linear. It only took him 22 years to get round to patenting the idea from when he first mentioned it! However, much as I want to talk about my own buzzes and hums, I rather think the weekend is going to be dominated by a couple of amps - Integral and the Benchmark (and some long walks with the dogs). And I am much looking forward to it.  |
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Post by John on Jun 23, 2015 17:58:28 GMT
Yes it quickly becomes circular in debate
In the end its about the enjoyment of music first regardless of your approach
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 23, 2015 19:17:10 GMT
People take it all so bloody seriously. Fair enough if it's your livelihood, but for most of us it's just a bunch of boxes and wires to play music through, and yet we get feuds that rival the Montagues and Capulets. I think people who post 100's of times a day every day for years probably don't even have a hifi, if they do and it was so musically satisfying why would they need to be on a forum at all, with 15-20,000 posts for some, is there enough time to listen to music anyway? Ronnio, having met you quite a few times at the shows I have to state you are a top chap, always friendly and one of life's characters, your life will be better after leaving said forum, mine was / is, the trouble with forums is there are too many keyboard warriors who don't have anything else in their lives, a bit like trip advisor where average joe can become a minor celebrity by reviewing a B+B etc etc. Any forum gives individuals the opportunity to becomes so called legends in their own lunchtimes, demi gods etc etc. Forums give people the opportunity to impose their views on others quite harshly at times and in some cases plainly bullying people. The big 3 I assume Mike is based on guesswork as forum size is surely measured on internet traffic? The UK has very small forums compared to other countries, DIY AUDIO being massive and others abroad, the ones in the UK we refer to are mostly small fry compared to the rest of the world. Interesting reading TBH (I only read it because I like Jazzbones and wondered what he had to say) Onwards and upwards. |
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 23, 2015 19:18:29 GMT
Yes it quickly becomes circular in debate In the end its about the enjoyment of music first regardless of your approach Exactly right John, I cannot stop playing the new mofi release of "True Colours" its driving me potty! |
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Post by MartinT on Jun 23, 2015 20:18:31 GMT
Richard - yes, let's do that in another thread, shall we? Jez - I'll continue to disagree but respect your views  David - it reminds me of something we have been debating in schools, the desire for every teenage girl to have umpteen 'friends' and loads of likes on Facebook, to the degree that they dare not write honestly about their small scale lives, so everyone exaggerates. They go into a severe depression if their posts don't get enough attention to the point that they will now only post at the optimum times of day when they are guaranteed a better response. It keeps the counsellors busy. Mad and sad, both. Alan - we are not one of the big three but for us growth and size(!) matter much less than keeping to our ethos. Tony - I have been flying the flag of mains quality for years, for me everything about power management is critical to SQ. Your summary of the potential hazards is excellent. |
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 23, 2015 20:27:21 GMT
Richard - yes, let's do that in another thread, shall we? Jez - I'll continue to disagree but respect your views David - it reminds me of something we have been debating in schools, the desire for every teenage girl to have umpteen 'friends' and loads of likes on Facebook, to the degree that they dare not write honestly about their small scale lives, so everyone exaggerates. They go into a severe depression if their posts don't get enough attention to the point that they will now only post at the optimum times of day when they are guaranteed a better response. It keeps the counsellors busy. Mad and sad, both. Alan - we are not one of the big three but for us growth and size(!) matter much less than keeping to our ethos. Tony - I have been flying the flag of mains quality for years, for me everything about power management is critical to SQ. Your summary of the potential hazards is excellent. Well I have a 13 year old daughter Martin and you are 100% correct, although professionals also only post at the optimal time of day to get the best response to their posts on twitter and facebook etc etc (business related of course). Your comments also remind me of forum dwellers (the part about not getting enough attention) |
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Post by Mr Whippy on Jun 23, 2015 21:18:47 GMT
Expectation Bias. Mine always seems to work in reverse - I never seem to get what I might hope for/expect when trying something out. But then, that's the way my life seems to go. I then say to myself why am I hearing what I'm hearing and not what I might want to here? I then think to myself well, if it's not what I might expect to hear, it must be actual, and not just all in my mind. Or that's the logic I apply.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 24, 2015 5:49:16 GMT
Expectation bias is often wheeled out for any situation where what we say we can hear is not accepted. If you listen without bias and without expectation, then reverse the changes (perhaps several times), you can keep yourself honest. It simply doesn't apply because I've heard as many changes for the worse as for the better over the years.
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 7:17:35 GMT
Expectation bias is often wheeled out for any situation where what we say we can hear is not accepted. If you listen without bias and without expectation, then reverse the changes (perhaps several times), you can keep yourself honest. It simply doesn't apply because I've heard as many changes for the worse as for the better over the years. I'm now following the new thread singularity has started on this subject - so as not to exacerbate the thread drift here |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 14:57:03 GMT
Forums aint worth breaking a sweat over arguing imho, Ive heard many system that are suppose to sound great but only to find they sound utterly dissapointing, a perfectly good reason for myself to take not a single bit of notice to what people say, i have experience enough not to anyway. I suppose they are ok if you are new to the game & find a starting point a bit of a minefield, but more often than not people are constantly selling their chance bought gear because they know it's no good for them using the 'Im upgrading' as excuse  Don't get me wrong i aint Mr know it all, ive gone thru so much money over the years only to end up at Square one with equipment i first started out with, but one thing i can safely say is ive never ever bought anything on the strength of peoples recommendations or Reviews..Anyway im going a bit of the o/p tangent ill shurrup. |
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Post by John on Jun 24, 2015 20:08:09 GMT
It is good to follow your own path
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Jun 27, 2015 16:54:16 GMT
I think a more interesting question than 'why do people leave forums?' is why do people feel the need to post on said forum that they are leaving - or even start a thread about it?
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Post by Mr Whippy on Jun 27, 2015 16:58:35 GMT
It is good to follow your own path Mine wants weeding. |
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Post by Greg on Jun 27, 2015 19:15:57 GMT
I think the reference to the Big Three has got lost during the thread course. My understanding of the original post was that the Big Three related to the owners and moderators here and has bugger all to do with other forums.
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