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Post by pinkie on Jun 22, 2015 15:13:17 GMT
Its bloody frustrating when mobile devices let you read but not respond because by the time you reach a keyboard everyone has moved on and I am years out of touch However, I cannot let this playground bullying around opera continue unchallenged. You are missing some treats. The problem with Opera is that it is perceived as "elitist" and is perhaps not easily accessible if you haven't got a friend to get you going on it I still strongly recommend the French film - with subtitles - "Diva" which is what started to kindle an interest for me. There was a magazine series shortly after (so 20 years or so ago) - which tackled one opera per issue, with a CD with the magazine and explanation of the plot and the background to the composer, and just made it all much simpler to get to grips with. Of course, I am now married to someone who trained as an operatic soprano, and is a wee bit keen on the whole business, and have a client (friend) who pretty much runs the Royal Opera House recorded media catalogue (James Whitbourn) - so I've been fortunate in being helped along a bit more. I remember, when an Uncle had interested me in malt whisky's, my Dad repeating his standard comment that it was "like vitriol". I pointed out it was an acquired taste - and he asked why anyone would be stupid enough to want to acquire a taste for vitriol. I gave up on him, and consider it his loss (This the man who now tours the Rhone valley buying wines direct from producers, but once served me "Sleeping Beauty" - a sweet Liebfraumilch - with steak, and thought himself the height of sophistication at the time). Anyway - Opera is a bit like malt whisky - an acquired taste, but one well worth acquiring. Get Diva for a fiver off Amazon, and then maybe dip a toe in the water with Carmen for a ripping good plot. Get a translation of the libretto and a precis of the story - and enjoy some way over the top theatre. Oh yes - its incomparably better live with that bit of preparation. TV and Bluray are just a top up once you've got the bug. It's supposed to be OUTRAGEOUS theatre. The first Carmen Sue and I saw together was an equestrian version in a big top - proper "Over the top" opera! Peasants!!
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Post by MartinT on Jun 22, 2015 15:20:32 GMT
LOL! I've seen Diva and enjoyed it. I also like parts of Carmen a lot. On the whole, though, there's not enough to keep me interested.
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Post by daytona600 on Jun 22, 2015 17:24:40 GMT
Bad
Endless arguments like Whats best vinyl/cd/streaming & Cables can be very tiresome
Good
Forums very good for Finding new music/artists
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:46:52 GMT
With he I rarely consciously leave a forum, other than when I was banned for life from a manufacturer's forum due to falling out with the owners son who ran the forum and then the owner after feeding him dome home truths that he wasn't happy to accept! Generally I just stop going to the forum through either bring too busy or losing interest in their topics. For a short period I ran my own Hifi forum (Hifiwise) but found as I'd set it up on my own, I found it too much effort to run alone. I also has a run in with one of the core UK a Hifi firms as someone had posted something they were claiming was liable and were threatening me with all sorts, so I decided to cut my loses. It's certainly something where I feel I haven't completely finished scratching they itch so may restart it sometime in the future. So far, I agree with most people here that TAS is a great little forum with good guys with good intentions running it Paul.
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Post by dvh on Jun 22, 2015 19:37:22 GMT
In my experience there are several different varieties of forum members. Broadly speaking they fall into the following categories: !) Forum tarts who join each and every forum just because they can. They are usually to be found at the heart of many circular discussions because they never tire of re-inventing the wheel 2) DIY types who have useful information to impart and who rarely if ever get involved in forum 'politics' 3) Music fans who also tend to avoid the political side of things 4) People who get banned from many/most forums, so have to start their own. These, ironically but unsurprisingly, are usually the worst at coping with dissent 5) N00bs who join forums to ask 'simple' questions like 'what's the best amplifier?' and who are trampled into the dust by hordes of agenda-driven members who are looking to sell an amplifier, which is so good they can hardly bear to part with it. The N00bs tend to drift away quite quickly 6) Serial killers Well I read the first five types and didn't recognise myself in any of them. I was pinning all my hopes on "6" being more me. Closest I come is wanting to murder a bowl of cereal now and again i think I'm more of a collector/box swapper who enjoys forums as another way to see and hear more about their obsession. I was going to add some more 'sensible' options but got bored and put serial killer instead. I'm sure there must be a few amongst the forums' population, purely by the law of averages. Of course, the vast majority of forum members are just normal people who enjoy reading/writing about hifi (though maybe enjoying reading/writing about hifi undermines any claim to normality).
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Post by dvh on Jun 22, 2015 19:44:04 GMT
I remember, when an Uncle had interested me in malt whisky's, my Dad repeating his standard comment that it was "like vitriol". I pointed out it was an acquired taste - and he asked why anyone would be stupid enough to want to acquire a taste for vitriol. I gave up on him, and consider it his loss (This the man who now tours the Rhone valley buying wines direct from producers, but once served me "Sleeping Beauty" - a sweet Liebfraumilch - with steak, and thought himself the height of sophistication at the time). Anyway - Opera is a bit like malt whisky - an acquired taste, but one well worth acquiring. I'm not sure how to put this, but I don't like malt whisky either. Which is odd, because my late father was Scottish and used to work in a distillery and was very fond of a dram. I never used to like the taste of beer either, so vodka came as a pleasant surprise: alcohol that I could drink without thinking how foul it tasted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 20:08:31 GMT
Ever since setting fingers on the Keyboard for the first time my sole intensions was to be a self appointurd Prog Rock evangelis a bit like those religeous dudes that like ter stuff it down your guzzler..i suppose many poster have ulterior motives just the same..Nowa days i think 99% of prog is an heap of crap. so to all those music forums i got banned from & all those people i told were tasteless turds for hating prog i appologise..
So there you go, shame so many cant admit they are as deaf as a door post no matter how much wonga they pump into their stereo's.
People that use forums to look good i just cannot get my last remaining brain cell around that one!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 20:43:20 GMT
I think it comes down to that Dark side of the moon quote "I can't really think of anything to say" Hostility and other behaviour issues contribute. A forum owner who thinks he knows it all, rams his superior (alleged) knowledge patronisingly down your throat, while making schoolboy errors on basic electricity, and then whining he is a victim of a global conspiracy when challenged on his mistakes, was contributory. But as singularity pointed out, particularly in a smaller forum, if you start to find you no longer have anything in common, then it is pointless being there. This forum is free of such angst. It maybe could do with growing a bit, and finding a wild side, and I sometimes struggle to relate to those with experiences outside my own, but it is angst free and I enjoy supporting it I left said forum (ok pushed the forum owner into either backing down a bit or banning me... the latter predictably happened) for the same reasons. It may have been noticed that I don't post here anymore... ok I am now.... Why? I know I won't exactly win any friends with the following but I try to fight against "foo" when I see it, things which if they really worked would require the laws of physics to be re-written. I found that the owners of this site are themselves heavily into foo so decided that there were probably better places for me to air my views... This is indeed one of the most friendly and laid back forums and I felt that my being honest in my postings would soon result in my being regarded as one of those upsetting the apple cart! Those who frequent pfm will have noted that some that disagree with me have done so in such an unpleasant manner as to provoke me into having to either be just as unpleasant back or to shut up and let them "win". The latter is not an option. Another factor is that as a one man band manufacturer and repairer of equipment I can't afford paid advertising in magazines etc and so try to make the availability of my services and products known on forums. Unfortunately for me this particular forum doesn't allow me to do that... The frustration of seeing a post along the lines of "Is there any really good phono stage available for not much money?".... and not being allowed to say "actually I believe I have just what you are after" is palpable!
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Post by Mr Whippy on Jun 22, 2015 20:55:54 GMT
Its bloody frustrating when mobile devices let you read but not respond because by the time you reach a keyboard everyone has moved on and I am years out of touch However, I cannot let this playground bullying around opera continue unchallenged. You are missing some treats. The problem with Opera is that it is perceived as "elitist" and is perhaps not easily accessible if you haven't got a friend to get you going on it I still strongly recommend the French film - with subtitles - "Diva" which is what started to kindle an interest for me. There was a magazine series shortly after (so 20 years or so ago) - which tackled one opera per issue, with a CD with the magazine and explanation of the plot and the background to the composer, and just made it all much simpler to get to grips with. Of course, I am now married to someone who trained as an operatic soprano, and is a wee bit keen on the whole business, and have a client (friend) who pretty much runs the Royal Opera House recorded media catalogue (James Whitbourn) - so I've been fortunate in being helped along a bit more. I remember, when an Uncle had interested me in malt whisky's, my Dad repeating his standard comment that it was "like vitriol". I pointed out it was an acquired taste - and he asked why anyone would be stupid enough to want to acquire a taste for vitriol. I gave up on him, and consider it his loss (This the man who now tours the Rhone valley buying wines direct from producers, but once served me "Sleeping Beauty" - a sweet Liebfraumilch - with steak, and thought himself the height of sophistication at the time). Anyway - Opera is a bit like malt whisky - an acquired taste, but one well worth acquiring. Get Diva for a fiver off Amazon, and then maybe dip a toe in the water with Carmen for a ripping good plot. Get a translation of the libretto and a precis of the story - and enjoy some way over the top theatre. Oh yes - its incomparably better live with that bit of preparation. TV and Bluray are just a top up once you've got the bug. It's supposed to be OUTRAGEOUS theatre. The first Carmen Sue and I saw together was an equestrian version in a big top - proper "Over the top" opera! Peasants!! Don't you mean Philistines? Must admit I'm somewhat disillusioned by forums now. If individuals feel the need to complain over quite really minor issues, then what hope is there for reason to prevail over more serious issues? And the whole banning thing I just don't agree with. If you don't agree with someone you don't have to respond to them. The comment about women was just a general one, not here in particular. When the ratio of opera lovers or Northerns to the rest on a forum gets out of kilter, that's a good time to leave a forum, I think. Had many converts André?
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Post by MartinT on Jun 22, 2015 21:26:28 GMT
I found that the owners of this site are themselves heavily into foo Just for the record, Jez, one man's foo is another man's significant SQ improvement. I know you're an objective designer and you believe that a power supply can be 'perfect' and anything beyond that is 'foo'. I disagreed with you on AoS and I still disagree with you now. However, I respect your right to your opinion and the freedom to fight your corner. I see no need to fall out over it - let members decide for themselves. I know how you must feel as a trader but at least it's equal treatment for all. However, like Stan and others here, there is nothing stopping you from discussing your products as long as you're not pushing it in people's faces when it hasn't been invited. You have declared your interest, if someone asks about a phono stage then feel free to suggest yours. If they bite and ask for more info, fine. By the way, thanks for the compliment towards TAS too!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 21:46:12 GMT
One or two Mr Whippy
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 22:16:36 GMT
I found that the owners of this site are themselves heavily into foo Just for the record, Jez, one man's foo is another man's significant SQ improvement. I know you're an objective designer and you believe that a power supply can be 'perfect' and anything beyond that is 'foo'. I disagreed with you on AoS and I still disagree with you now. However, I respect your right to your opinion and the freedom to fight your corner. I see no need to fall out over it - let members decide for themselves. I know how you must feel as a trader but at least it's equal treatment for all. However, like Stan and others here, there is nothing stopping you from discussing your products as long as you're not pushing it in people's faces when it hasn't been invited. You have declared your interest, if someone asks about a phono stage then feel free to suggest yours. If they bite and ask for more info, fine. By the way, thanks for the compliment towards TAS too! Well.. there's plenty to comment on there! First, and I've said this several times, I do not consider myself an objective designer as such. I like things to measure well but I let the ear be the final arbiter. I have certainly designed amps which measure great but sound nothing special and so they went no further. No engineering can be perfect, including power supplies, as all engineering is a balance of compromises. I do of course say that there is no way a mains cable can have any influence as it is against the laws of physics and all engineering principals for it to do so. I could put forward a long and detailed technical explanation as to why it can't have any effect but I know i would be wasting my time.... Just as I am certain that there is no god or other form of sky wizards but would be wasting my time trying to persuade church goers of that! I also say that it is perfectly straightforward to build a power supply to a standard where it is pretty much immune to any "mains foibles". This is well known engineering fact and is even part of the spec for electronics used in medical equipment and other such critical areas. I didn't consider us to have fallen out BTW Your paragraph about traders is reassuring. Thanks
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 23, 2015 6:38:45 GMT
I like the "big three" label You lost me Mike! Further back up the thread, referring to the founding fathers
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Post by AlanS on Jun 23, 2015 6:49:19 GMT
I like the "big three" label Big three PFM Wigwam Art of Sound perhaps?
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Post by pinkie on Jun 23, 2015 7:35:00 GMT
No engineering can be perfect, including power supplies, as all engineering is a balance of compromises. I do of course say that there is no way a mains cable can have any influence as it is against the laws of physics and all engineering principals for it to do so. I could put forward a long and detailed technical explanation as to why it can't have any effect but I know i would be wasting my time.... Just as I am certain that there is no god or other form of sky wizards but would be wasting my time trying to persuade church goers of that! I also say that it is perfectly straightforward to build a power supply to a standard where it is pretty much immune to any "mains foibles". This is well known engineering fact and is even part of the spec for electronics used in medical equipment and other such critical areas. Jez - good to see you back. the "problems relating" I referred to were foo. I had to have a period away from here with hot towels wrapped round my head after reading the mains fuses posts a few months back. My own stupid fault for reading the thread in the first place - it wasn't like it crept in as thread drift on an innocently named other thread. I can only assume I had a long wait at opthalmic outpatients (where they now have free wifi) and was desperate. I would be interested in a nice gentle discussion on the positives of science. Rather than foo bashing, explaining what we understand and how and why it can make a difference - particularly surrounding mains. Owen is coming to stay this weekend and I was going to pick his brains on it, but whilst he humours me, and chips away at the (fairly profound) depths of my ignorance, he is busy earning a living, and not remotely interested in HiFi forums - so its like pulling teeth. I am happy from your posts that I would rely on you absolutely for technical knowledge. I am about to get a "mains treatment cable" myself any day. This one is being supplied free of charge by BK electronics whose sub-woofer is "faulty" and this is their proposed solution. The sub hums (buzzes really) intermittently. The noise is independant of any signal connections or gain settings. When it is noisy, I can feel nothing on the speaker cone. So its a transformer buzz. From their proposed solution, I take it that there is torroidal in there. The issue is DC offset, and they are sending me FREE a DC blocking mains lead. There are 2 interesting aspects to that. First - mains and "dirty" or "imperfect" mains can affect audio equipment. It just probably doesn't affect it in the way many imagine or believe (ie its not changing the quality of the DC coming out the other end of the power supply - but "Other stuff" which can be equally important to musical enjoyment. There's no harm in a good logical technical explanation of what goes on with mains and what it can affect. Second - this product is being sent to me FREE - to do the job of DC blocking - which is a good bit cheaper than some of the eyewatering money it is possible to spend on products just doing the same job. (This leads as an aside to a wee ethical dilema I have had recently. AK has been approached by MCRU to be a dealer - primarily for the technics products, and he asked my views. I pointed out Dave has a mixed reputation on forums, attributable to his aggressive sales techniques, (frankly naievely so) but that he is clearly a capable salesman, and in my limited direct dealings with him I have found him to be honest, and offer first class service and professionalism. My issue is he makes money peddling foo - but I didnt see that prevented him doing a good job selling Funk products) The issue I am going to pick Owens brains on is ground loops (again - I first asked him about this over 25 years ago, and I still haven't really got it). I am considering transformer decoupling the signal - something that would have been anathema for me previously, but I'm intrigued to try it. The point being that whilst mains MAY not affect the "power house" - the DC that is the reference for the DAC or amplifier (and if it does, it is readily measurable) - it can intefere with the signal. And maybe some mains products make "inkier blacks" because they tackle mains noise in the signal path through poor cable routing or ground loops. This is why some benefit and others don't - if you have fixed the problem another way, mains treatments bring nothing to the party. The Balanced Power Supplies that caused me to fall out with the other forum owner are an obvious example of this. They don't "remove noise" from mains "Like active noise cancellation headphones" - but (if they have a floating ground ) they can break ground loops, and hence are often used in professional situations. And maybe (I am speculating here - so this could be bollocks) the transformer acting as a low-pass filter "improves sound" by reducing the high frequency muck - not in the "power house" but in the cables acting as a source of noise for the signal. (My only direct experience of a Balanced Power Supply was in a system with such a bad 50Hz hum on one channel it was impossible to draw any conclusions). Anyway - post already too long. Fancy starting a non-bashing thread explaining some of these things? I'll warn you, you'll have to be patient!
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Post by MartinT on Jun 23, 2015 12:08:34 GMT
My approach is rather different (and take into account that my degree is in electronic engineering): I replace a perfectly ordinary BS approved mains plug fuse with an SR Red. I hear a difference that is subtle but clear. I reverse it and I hear that difference. After several tries, I realise that, for reasons I can't fathom, there IS a difference.
At this point, I could either wheel out lots of technical analysis that tells me I must be wrong and cannot be hearing what I've just witnessed, or I can start some thought experiments about what possible mechanism could cause such a difference. I take the latter path.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 12:22:53 GMT
Foo, Foo everywhere and not a Foo to test, where for art thou my spectrum analyzer. Anyhow, individual decisions to leave various places are usually involve a clash with one of two members of horn love in group An agenda actively pursued by said individual to further their own gains while attempting to blend in the back ground. Professional wooden spoon. Egotistical megalomaniacs who suffer from disillusions of grandeur possibly with deep character flaws such as an inferiority complex, penis envy, low self esteem and zero ability with women. The said place has become sterile and dull. The same old circular arguments valves / solid state, cables do / don't work my front panels has more lights than yours Life moves on for the individual and what once important takes a back seat to a new woman or hobby. Now where did I put my Robin hood outfit
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 13:52:52 GMT
No engineering can be perfect, including power supplies, as all engineering is a balance of compromises. I do of course say that there is no way a mains cable can have any influence as it is against the laws of physics and all engineering principals for it to do so. I could put forward a long and detailed technical explanation as to why it can't have any effect but I know i would be wasting my time.... Just as I am certain that there is no god or other form of sky wizards but would be wasting my time trying to persuade church goers of that! I also say that it is perfectly straightforward to build a power supply to a standard where it is pretty much immune to any "mains foibles". This is well known engineering fact and is even part of the spec for electronics used in medical equipment and other such critical areas. Jez - good to see you back. the "problems relating" I referred to were foo. I had to have a period away from here with hot towels wrapped round my head after reading the mains fuses posts a few months back. My own stupid fault for reading the thread in the first place - it wasn't like it crept in as thread drift on an innocently named other thread. I can only assume I had a long wait at opthalmic outpatients (where they now have free wifi) and was desperate. I would be interested in a nice gentle discussion on the positives of science. Rather than foo bashing, explaining what we understand and how and why it can make a difference - particularly surrounding mains. Owen is coming to stay this weekend and I was going to pick his brains on it, but whilst he humours me, and chips away at the (fairly profound) depths of my ignorance, he is busy earning a living, and not remotely interested in HiFi forums - so its like pulling teeth. I am happy from your posts that I would rely on you absolutely for technical knowledge. I am about to get a "mains treatment cable" myself any day. This one is being supplied free of charge by BK electronics whose sub-woofer is "faulty" and this is their proposed solution. The sub hums (buzzes really) intermittently. The noise is independant of any signal connections or gain settings. When it is noisy, I can feel nothing on the speaker cone. So its a transformer buzz. From their proposed solution, I take it that there is torroidal in there. The issue is DC offset, and they are sending me FREE a DC blocking mains lead. There are 2 interesting aspects to that. First - mains and "dirty" or "imperfect" mains can affect audio equipment. It just probably doesn't affect it in the way many imagine or believe (ie its not changing the quality of the DC coming out the other end of the power supply - but "Other stuff" which can be equally important to musical enjoyment. There's no harm in a good logical technical explanation of what goes on with mains and what it can affect. Second - this product is being sent to me FREE - to do the job of DC blocking - which is a good bit cheaper than some of the eyewatering money it is possible to spend on products just doing the same job. (This leads as an aside to a wee ethical dilema I have had recently. AK has been approached by MCRU to be a dealer - primarily for the technics products, and he asked my views. I pointed out Dave has a mixed reputation on forums, attributable to his aggressive sales techniques, (frankly naievely so) but that he is clearly a capable salesman, and in my limited direct dealings with him I have found him to be honest, and offer first class service and professionalism. My issue is he makes money peddling foo - but I didnt see that prevented him doing a good job selling Funk products) The issue I am going to pick Owens brains on is ground loops (again - I first asked him about this over 25 years ago, and I still haven't really got it). I am considering transformer decoupling the signal - something that would have been anathema for me previously, but I'm intrigued to try it. The point being that whilst mains MAY not affect the "power house" - the DC that is the reference for the DAC or amplifier (and if it does, it is readily measurable) - it can intefere with the signal. And maybe some mains products make "inkier blacks" because they tackle mains noise in the signal path through poor cable routing or ground loops. This is why some benefit and others don't - if you have fixed the problem another way, mains treatments bring nothing to the party. The Balanced Power Supplies that caused me to fall out with the other forum owner are an obvious example of this. They don't "remove noise" from mains "Like active noise cancellation headphones" - but (if they have a floating ground ) they can break ground loops, and hence are often used in professional situations. And maybe (I am speculating here - so this could be bollocks) the transformer acting as a low-pass filter "improves sound" by reducing the high frequency muck - not in the "power house" but in the cables acting as a source of noise for the signal. (My only direct experience of a Balanced Power Supply was in a system with such a bad 50Hz hum on one channel it was impossible to draw any conclusions). Anyway - post already too long. Fancy starting a non-bashing thread explaining some of these things? I'll warn you, you'll have to be patient! Thanks for the considered reply Pinkie! I won't be starting any non bashing thread on the subject as it's a waste of time. You can see from Martins post for example that he is convinced he can hear a difference from changing a fuse.. I know there is no difference but he is as certain that there is. The whole mains cable thing comes from the fact that non technical people can fit a new mains cable in seconds... it takes no knowledge of electronics. Sale's people with an eye to a huge profit realised this and thought "we've convinced people that they need special speaker cable so lets see if we can do the same with mains leads"... the technical ignorance of most audiophiles combined with skilful marketing have done the rest! Things that can genuinely give improvements require taking the lid of your amp and technical knowledge and so most audiophiles don't understand it and consider "here be dragons". They would need the likes of myself to do the work for them which takes away the "I customised my hifi myself" bit (even if they've just changed a cable!) and would mean that in the unlikely scenario of them not liking the upgrade it would have to be sent back to an engineer to reverse it, at further cost in engineers time. My favourite analogy for foo is that it's like car enthusiasts believing that go faster stripes really do make the car faster.... whilst completely ignoring matters like higher lift cams, bigger inlet valves, re-mapping the ECU etc that actually do make it faster because they don't understand it and can't do it themselves! Another part of this is I guess that because hifi is an electrical product people wrongly assume that the quality of that electricity, as it comes from the 13 Amp socket, is critical... it isn't! The way the power is dealt with inside the amp IS critical in terms of voltage regulation and grounding regime but this has little to do with the incoming mains.
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Post by John on Jun 23, 2015 14:08:27 GMT
Here is my take on why some people hear difference and some people do not 1) We all have different sensory processing abilities. I work in the field of autism where this is more extreme 2) Our way of thinking is varied. So our belief and value base is different 3) The system and room will be different 4) I accept there maybe some degree of expectation biasi but also suggest that expectation bias can work both ways
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 23, 2015 14:57:10 GMT
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