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Post by MartinT on Jul 2, 2024 4:28:14 GMT
Those are good Dire Straits test tracks which I use, as well as You and Your Friend and Calling Elvis.
All great songs.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 2, 2024 13:30:50 GMT
I've found 6 of the mid range drivers I require at TLHP (driver etc supplier in France). Some DIYaudio folk have okayed them as suppliers.
Good price Inc VAT and shipping. Only 60€ for 2 so should be below any Brexit tax, I hope.
Will take a few days more to arrive.
The UK supply was £30 in March went up to £39 for the last 2 I bought in June and now out of stock until at least August.
Hopefully that's sorted now and can order up another half sheet to make the new full rear chamber.
Meanwhile I'll have a good measure of the phase response and adjust accordingly.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 2, 2024 20:49:01 GMT
Those are good Dire Straits test tracks which I use, as well as You and Your Friend and Calling Elvis. All great songs. Yes indeed. Tracks from Chris Rea's Auberge also do it for me. There's an alternative version of Looking For The Summer on Qobuz I particularly like the bass on. Having his Caterham 7 all over it helps too😂 These speakers are doing Karma Killer by Robbie Williams to my satisfaction too. First time any of my systems have pumped it enough! It's not about frequency coverage or smooth level amplitude plots (they are a given), it's all about 'pump'🙂 Plus NOT needing massive dB to achieve it. Can't wait to try the other cab with same loading
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Post by mattspl on Jul 5, 2024 9:01:05 GMT
This could be an interesting watch for you Steve
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 5, 2024 11:28:19 GMT
TLHP were good. The last 2 X 5" sealed back MFs arrived safely. All the drivers are assembled. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240705/5b5a9c2afef2310a17771127d21dbf94.jpg) Got to get some more sheet material for the new rear chamber on the remaining cab. Weekend job.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 5, 2024 13:09:50 GMT
This could be an interesting watch for you Steve Thanks for that, I'd not seen this one. It's an excellent insight into building and setting up of a Multi Entry Horn system. Many of the names he drops have been and are actively involved on the DIYaudio forum. That forum is an absolute goldmine of info and shared excellence. I really think this design / tech is a game changer over the usual 3 or 4 or more passive radiating drivers. He really covers that well. The lack of distortion is the key factor. Tickling excellent pro audio drivers is certainly where it's at. Will mainstream catch up? They are very conservative and slow, why bother, making lots of money as it is.. He's gone full beans on the surround sound. I've yet to bite that bullet. Use of DSP and multi active essential. I didn't fully get his implementation of crossovers. Sounded like he has XOs on LF and MF which will mess with the phase. Must watch that part again.. Correction: he's using 2nd order, so has that last piece of the puzzle to implement.. I've heard good things about the B&C coaxial HF/MF but ultimately not sure I trust it to buy blind over my Vitavox S2s. I'd love his room (one day😂) My room is much smaller - narrow / longer proportioned so the narrower dispersion angle works well for me. I might build a 60° version of what I have, but feel 90° would be too much for my room.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 7, 2024 14:24:35 GMT
I noted that Mr Parker uses the Hypex 3way DSP, with 3 built in amps. A Hypex FA253 2 x 250 + 100 Watt FusionAmp to be precise. I'm always on the lookout for alternatives to Najda should my unit ever fail + my back up one fail too🙂 £600 + vat odd for the FA253. Good value as it's essentially a plate amp you build in. Stuff like DEQX, Trinnov seems hugely over priced - boutique, fancy looking offerings for the audiophile crowd.. The Hypex certainly ticks many boxes. 15 biquad PEQs per output. 4000 FIR taps, if configuration is right to allow use. I currently use 11 PEQs on one of the LF channels and 9 on the RH. That's down to room differences. Why so many? With no usual crossover several PEQs are used to kill of a unwanted high freq spill over, and the odd low frequency one too The PEQs don't mess with phase like usual 2nd order, 3rd order, 4th order etc. In fact they are also used subtly to control the phase. I'd have to run a DSP power amp (with a couple of PEQs at minimum) on the tapped horn subs. Crown have an excellent one. Delays could be done in Hypex channels to time align the upper 3 with the delay of the tapped horns. I must get in touch with Mr Parker and see how he finds the Hypex.. He also has a 7.2 setup. Would be good to understand how he configured that.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 7, 2024 15:12:44 GMT
Meanwhile I'm ploughing on with the extra driver loading for the RH cab for my setup. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/0ba77832a9f75e6153081770dd2d4e19.jpg) ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/ab5ebf50b48a7c4974d4272af52b8848.jpg) All taps and ports done. I'm making a new rear can enclosure for this side with the 6 side bolt bracers and 4 front fasteners. Got new rear cab support rails to fit too. Really looking forward to hearing the finished pair..
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2024 17:36:41 GMT
Can't wait to hear the end result too, Steve.
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 10, 2024 21:09:56 GMT
I finished the 2nd cab full driver compliment project.
New full volume rear cab made and painted. I really like the Danley method of using long bolts through the rear cab shell through into T nuts in the horn. Really positive fixing and pulls the sides in on the bracing runners nicely.
I wired up. 4 MF drivers to give 8 ohms and the 2 LF giving 4 ohms.
I just need to find a nice way of sealing the hole in the rear of cab where the Vitavox S2 drivers stick through. Tape works but is not so nice - a neoprene ring, flange etc are on the cards.
Got the cab back in place💪
Running them up now 🎶 😃 Nice to have tunes again after 3 days.
2 X LF per side shift some air / punch nicely when called for.
I'll swear the 4 X MFs sound sweeter too? It's okay I'm biased - after all the work I've put in on them..😂
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 11, 2024 16:02:50 GMT
I still can’t quite get over how pure and right the sound actually is of the MF (4 drivers) coming through 8 lots of 3/4" diameter taps, and the LF (2 drivers) coming though 4 lots of 2.5" diameter taps, with another 4 same sized ports doing reflex bass. To me, used to straight front loaded horns (again working in compression), the Synergy horn effectiveness is remarkable!
You'd think it would alter or affect the sound somehow
Just not so!
I guess all the 1/4 wavelength, entry holes in the corners out of the way, and the phase coherency all add up too.
The 4 X MF drivers do integrate even better with the HF. Danley worked all that out!
The Vitavox S2 we know and love, and it's in a straight forward enough horn…
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Post by speedysteve on Jul 19, 2024 13:04:24 GMT
So after adding all the extra drivers and listening as was for a good line while... I got around to measuring / analysing the best possible X/Os 1st order only on the HF compression driver (90 degree phase shift) and combination and no X/Os only PEQ filters mix on the MF and LF.
I'd also been reading up and found some more info about the Danley XOs.
This led me to realise I had been crossing the Vitavox S2s in a little bit too high.
I went all the way from a 4uF cap to 11uF to lower the XO point. These are 15ohm drivers, so you can do the maths:)
This meant that the bridge between MF and HF was more natural and required a different time delay than before.
I also re-evaluated the MF to LF PEQs and timing and found improvements could be made.
Got the best (so far), phase plots. I've achieved with the Vitavox S2s in the mix. Still not as smooth as the BMS4550 best I had, but I much prefer the S2 sound over the 4550!
They are still work in progress, as I will fiddle again and refine, but the difference is . . . Like have a different pair of speakers or at least having upgraded from a lesser model to the deluxe! The difference is that big!
I wanted to try to describe the audible changes possible in crossovers, time alignment and phase coherency, it's difficult but this is the nearest I can come up with, that most can relate to..
I can only describe it as an improvement in depth perception and stereo image of the central object (usually vocals). The speaker hardware sort of disappears, it's just the music.
Dynamics and tonal balance are tweakable via SPL and PEQ values, this goes beyond that...
A changing phase is changing time.
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 27, 2024 16:46:00 GMT
Square'ish Tapped Horn sub on the go. Will do 30Hz, little lower minus a few dB. Will use the venerable Eminence Lab12 sub woofer. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240827/2379d1677090b1eba9a192b2f325f993.jpg) ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240827/06c8d2ff094a5f7cafc38226e6b5dc00.jpg) ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240827/fc100cd3c7b37174b01fa4e11c1ac156.jpg) ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240827/ff73ec111f18d6c3f6f3578551dbf055.jpg) First side gluing up. Using Evostick expanding urethane glue. Also be sealing the wood. Bracing and adding some bitumen damping sheets to taste🙂 ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240827/943fbc5ee2a46cbb7e194855019ae72f.jpg) I'm building it to pair with the Danley SH50 style cabs I built and am loving. Won't be in the music / cinema room (the two tapped horns are there still), but on the little jaunt in September and perhaps the odd garden party / wedding.. To provide the lowest octave 60Hz to 30Hz. I would have liked 2, but 2 will not fit in the car. Corner loaded so should be adequate. Will be powered by my Cerwin Vega 1800 in Bridged Mode.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 27, 2024 18:43:12 GMT
That's good, Steve. I did wonder when you wrote tapped horn in the spreadsheet, how you were going to transport it/them!
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 27, 2024 19:43:34 GMT
Yes, 38" X 30" X 15.25" is not to big.
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 28, 2024 20:02:30 GMT
Bit of progress. Sides on and internals test placed in. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240828/84d7bdd87ec4a86020fd4abd5db1e753.jpg) Driver baffle / mount done. Will be sealed and bitumen sheeted. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240828/0b8369b02da0f63cca4a6270b4ed799f.jpg) Bolts and T nuts Xmax catered for ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240828/a469b6745c6d4e2b6f66019feed3842c.jpg) The wee beasty ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240828/3c194f914e62d118eeb7a9157c11bba2.jpg)
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Post by MartinT on Aug 28, 2024 20:18:14 GMT
Hell of a driver.
The cabinet is not a transmission line but an absorbent labyrinth? No rear opening?
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 29, 2024 10:03:45 GMT
No, it's a horn, constant in expansion so conical over the length of the labyrinth. It being folded doesn't matter. With the open rear of the driver output and dimensioning it becomes a Tapped horn, as the front cone wave form is timed to be reinforced by the rear one. There's a 13" X 14" opening on the bottom left for the tap. Convenient as I can just install the driver through the opening. No faffing with extra inspection panel. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240829/96b749c02e032ba2cd295cfaab5238c7.jpg) The tap fills in the usual hole you get in response and amplifies power. The other speakers (mains) need to be delayed by the time sound takes to travel the horn path. About 8ms in this case. I'll measure that and introduce the delay in Najda DSP for the mains. The SH50 style cabs are much easier to deal with setup and timing wise. You 'simply' set up with measuring mic 1m infront of each cab. Once set that's it, for all venues! No faffing each time with the mic at the listening spot. The single point origin (for frequencies 60Hz and up) do the rest. Below about 100Hz you can't hear, hence the break to another horn is fine. For The Victory Hall the mains will be delayed to where the tapped horn sub is placed in the room. If the same distance to the listener as mains, then it's the 8ms or so. If further away, in a corner (as I suspect I'll want, to get full corner loading), then slightly longer. Around 3ms per metre extra away.
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 29, 2024 19:10:52 GMT
Had a couple of audiophiles over for a listen. Separate sessions so plenty of chance for them to listen to all their favourites. So easy as they could log in with their Qobuz and off you go!
These guys have built / owned multiway horn systems and travelled the shows including the huge Munich! The one with all the huge horn and other systems
Summary:
"Popped to Steve’s yesterday to have a listen as I’ve been interested in a pair of these for a long long time, but it’s not really been possible to hear any.
These sounded absolutely phenomenal and I need a pair!
Hard to characterise as they are incredibly even across the range and don’t really highlight any particular range or characteristics. We played all sorts through them and they basically just played the music. There’s no sense in any particular range being accentuated.
Vs traditional multi-way horns, they’re much more coherent and there’s no sense of individual drivers. You don’t really get that “horn” sound, they remind me of a really good pair of headphones, very intimate and detailed but do the horn thing of zero stress when the volume is turned up.
They’re also relatively compact for what they are and you could get away with a small sub below the main horn, albeit you’d lose some of the performance of the tapped horns.
So, go figure, looks I need to build a pair as well!"
The other chap said similar and is in the process of deciding what to build.
Hope they dont disappoint at The Victory Hall.
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 30, 2024 6:55:57 GMT
I realised i didn't put the Hornresp modelling data up - here it is Parameters ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240830/2d99d159e47858a587742af9e4bdd851.jpg) How they are measured out. The S's are area, measured in cmsq. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240830/43034b45c32c7846dd523588bd73a7ba.jpg) Schematic (how it looks straightened out - 30Hz or anything below 100Hz doesn't see the folds acoustically) ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240830/09c9d359636252834f1e9a38215256c0.jpg) The all important SPL. This is a 2.83V / 1 watt. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240830/babb5e17b517916629e1ac20d0abb10a.jpg) The first peak will be flattered by a DSP PEQ, above 60Hz I'll have a 4th order L-R slope killing everything off nicely. I'll also have a 4th order killing of anything below 20Hz to protect the driver. The driver diaphragm displacement. ![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240830/86a55aa786307843c96926cefef37a2a.jpg) When SPL is flattened it'll give around 107dB/W and 29Hz flat. Wonder how many Watts I'll be chucking in to pressure the hall? 🙂 Have upto 800W peak, 400W music. But I don't think / hope🤞 we won't go anywhere near that! The CV amp can give 1800W in mono bridged mode. No bottle neck there! It will be suitable throttled back by it's built in control.
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