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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2015 21:34:52 GMT
If you ever want to try another one, Ron, get your hands on an AMR Gold. For about the same price (circa £20), I think they're the bargain of the fuse world. Not far off the Synergistic Red for less than half the price.
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Post by jazzbones on Jan 10, 2015 22:50:18 GMT
If you ever want to try another one, Ron, get your hands on an AMR Gold. For about the same price (circa £20), I think they're the bargain of the fuse world. Not far off the Synergistic Red for less than half the price. Just about to do so Martin, thanks for the recommendation. A Red may go into the mains lead from wall outlet to distribution block in my mind being the most important input. My one only RA will be used for the tuner duties, now all I need is six (AMR Golds) more for the time being. Tape and headphone amp can wait their turn.... is Lidl's and Aldi's really good for really cheap food, something got to give and sacrifices made . By the way I did emery board down, clean and treat the end caps of my stock fuses before making a comparison in case anyone makes the suggestion. We believe in quality plugs, cleaning and shining same, connectors etc., why not the all important fuse... I mean if this goes then so does the juice and whoa is me, no music folks! ? Ron PS I will not be sticking a fuse in my ear to see if I hear and improvement... I must draw the line somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 23:09:30 GMT
The power cord fuse is very definitely a UK thing. In the EU, USA and I think everywhere else, there is actually no physical room in a mains plug to fit a fuse.
In my latest set up, I have gone for 32A Neutrik Powercon at the chassis connection, and 32A industrial mains plugs. Those go onto sockets on a home made wooden block, with RA 24-way mains cable into a butch 3-pin mains plug.
Gets rid of all cable mains fuses. There is of course a rear panel safety mains fuse (6.3A slow blow) and a soft start circuit to prevent toroid inrush blowing the fuse, plus an ETA 10A rocker mains switch incorporating a thermal circuit breaker.
Funnily enough Russ himself has shifted all his own mains connections in his own hifi across to US plugs and sockets. Since these are designed for half the voltage (and hence twice the current) they form a lower resistance connection that UK and EU (Shuko or local standards).
Do mains fuses make a sonic difference? Possibly. They are inherently current non-linear (which is why they have no place in loudspeaker protection), but it is hard to see what the physics might be that gives rise to sonic differences in fuses in the mains circuit. I suspect it is much better to ensure that your ring main is properly tightened into each socket, that the distribution board terminals are likewise tight and clean, and that mains plugs and sockets are clean with no oxide build up. That is something that is quick to do (if you are confident and safe in working with mains!), and cheap - and in any event would be necessary before trying to find sonic differences in mains lead fuses.
Craig
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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2015 23:51:05 GMT
I certainly advocate Deoxit spray for cleaning all contacts, including fuseholders.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 6:57:06 GMT
Seconded on the Deoxit. I use both that and ProGold depending on the contact.
I have a mate who bought a 72 channel studio manual mixing deck with crackly faders. These are semi open type and had just accumulated grot over the years. He had already started the laborious job of pulling each channel strip, opening each fader, cleaning the track and reassembling when I put him onto FaderLube (another Caig product) after a liberal squirt of IPA to get rid of most of the rubbish. Job done.
Craig
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Post by jazzbones on Jan 11, 2015 14:20:51 GMT
The power cord fuse is very definitely a UK thing. In the EU, USA and I think everywhere else, there is actually no physical room in a mains plug to fit a fuse. In my latest set up, I have gone for 32A Neutrik Powercon at the chassis connection, and 32A industrial mains plugs. Those go onto sockets on a home made wooden block, with RA 24-way mains cable into a butch 3-pin mains plug. Gets rid of all cable mains fuses. There is of course a rear panel safety mains fuse (6.3A slow blow) and a soft start circuit to prevent toroid inrush blowing the fuse, plus an ETA 10A rocker mains switch incorporating a thermal circuit breaker. Funnily enough Russ himself has shifted all his own mains connections in his own hifi across to US plugs and sockets. Since these are designed for half the voltage (and hence twice the current) they form a lower resistance connection that UK and EU (Shuko or local standards). Do mains fuses make a sonic difference? Possibly. They are inherently current non-linear (which is why they have no place in loudspeaker protection), but it is hard to see what the physics might be that gives rise to sonic differences in fuses in the mains circuit. I suspect it is much better to ensure that your ring main is properly tightened into each socket, that the distribution board terminals are likewise tight and clean, and that mains plugs and sockets are clean with no oxide build up. That is something that is quick to do (if you are confident and safe in working with mains!), and cheap - and in any event would be necessary before trying to find sonic differences in mains lead fuses. Craig Hi Craig, thanks for your valid input. For about 30 years I used Inca Tech gold plated round pin 15amp plugs and sockets into a DIY mahogany wood block, seperate fused at consumer panel, but recently changed to my present day 13amp set up as I was concerned about insurance cover. I did not want to give the insurance company any wriggle room to not pay out in the event of a house fire enabling them to point at my 15amp unfused rig and saying that I contravened electrical practice and regulations so no payout. I was very happy with my 15amp plugs and sockets which are now unused and boxed up in the loft. How does Russ Andrews get around using USA plugs and sockets as opposed to UK industry standard? My amps are classic Naims and are left on 24/7 another bone of contention for some but thats another pickle on a plate for debate? All connections are tight and cleaned from consumer board switch and fuse, right down the chain to the IEC sockets on my equipment plus double check of polarity. Ron
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 15:39:06 GMT
Hi Craig, thanks for your valid input. For about 30 years I used Inca Tech gold plated round pin 15amp plugs and sockets into a DIY mahogany wood block, seperate fused at consumer panel, but recently changed to my present day 13amp set up as I was concerned about insurance cover. I did not want to give the insurance company any wriggle room to not pay out in the event of a house fire enabling them to point at my 15amp unfused rig and saying that I contravened electrical practice and regulations so no payout. I was very happy with my 15amp plugs and sockets which are now unused and boxed up in the loft. How does Russ Andrews get around using USA plugs and sockets as opposed to UK industry standard? My amps are classic Naims and are left on 24/7 another bone of contention for some but thats another pickle on a plate for debate? All connections are tight and cleaned from consumer board switch and fuse, right down the chain to the IEC sockets on my equipment plus double check of polarity. Ron That is an interesting point. Then I got to thinking about 3-phase supplies, which seem to get connected between a wall-mounted industrial socket and a machine with no intervening fuses at all. Sure there are utility fuses on the incoming, and a magnetic circuit breakers in the equivalent of a consumer unit but after that the only thing in the way is the contactor that you use to turn the machine on and off. I think the fused plug is something that is part of domestic thinking; when you think about it all it protects is the mains cable! Upstream there is the circuit MCB and ELCB in the consumer unit, and downstream it plugs into a fused appliance (in our case a piece of audio gear) Ah - Wikipedia is your friend: "There are two common misconceptions about the purpose of the fuse in a BS 1363 plug, one is that it protects the appliance connected to the plug, and the other is that it protects against overloading. In fact the fuse is there to protect the flexible cord between the plug and the appliance under fault conditions[44][45] (typical British ring circuits can deliver more current than appliance flexible power cords can handle). BS 1363 plugs are required to carry a cartridge fuse,[46] which must conform to BS 1362. Post-War Building Studies No. 11, Electrical Installations included the recommendation that Provision should be made in the plug for the accommodation of a cartridge type of fuse for 13 amps., and alternatively, for 3 amps. Fuses of these ratings should be interchangeable and be readily identified.[47] The original BS 1363:1947 specified fuse ratings of 3 A, 7 A and 13 A.[48] The current version of the fuse standard, BS 1362:1973, allows any fuse rating up to 13 A, with 3 A (coloured red) and 13 A (coloured brown) as the preferred (but not mandated) values when used in a plug. All other ratings are to be coloured black." So I was right - it is there to prevent cable faults from causing an unsafe condition. But it brings up another question: most of our gear takes fairly small current. Even a decent size power amp will never take more than 3A, or possibly extremely 5A for a monster class A. But I'll bet that we all just leave the good old 13A fuse in there, even when the mains cord is only (thermally) rated at perhaps 6A. I'd also wager that those who buy esoteric fuses from Hi-Fi Tuning and the like buy the 13A variety - at 30-odd quid a fuse you don't want the risk of one blowing as a result of transformer inrush current ;-) Russ Andrews has only adapted his own domestic system to US-style plugs and sockets - and as a private individual he can do whatever he feels comfortable with. As far as I know, there is no recommendation on the RA website to use anything other than regular UK plugs and sockets with fuses (with pricey cable between the two...) The only things that I turn off are the power amps - and that is only because it is valved, and I don't want a room heater running all the time, or feeding it with 8 matched pairs of valves regularly. Craig
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 17:44:53 GMT
OK - been looking at this a little further. The formal legislation says that you either use a conventional fused mains plug for current 13A or less, unless an alternative has the same safety features. Specifically that seems to mean that live and neutral pins have an insulated section, that a fuse has to be incorporated in the plug, and the socket has to be shuttered. All those seem to be available for round pin plugs and sockets. In any event, insulation on L and N and shuttering probably don't compromise fundamental safety for insurance purposes, and BS546 (round pin) and BS646 (matching fuses) are mentioned in the legislation.
Personally I am using a 32A Neutrik Powercon on the amps, and a 32A industrial mains plug on the other - both most certainly are not 13A or less! And both of course are approved designs and fit for purpose. The cable is 39A and 17mm diameter, so not the sort of cable that will develop a fault, unless you run over it with an artic.
Anyway 15A round pin plugs and sockets seem to be fine (see top paragraph).
Craig
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Post by MartinT on Jan 11, 2015 18:21:33 GMT
But it brings up another question: most of our gear takes fairly small current. Even a decent size power amp will never take more than 3A, or possibly extremely 5A for a monster class A. But I'll bet that we all just leave the good old 13A fuse in there, even when the mains cord is only (thermally) rated at perhaps 6A. I'd also wager that those who buy esoteric fuses from Hi-Fi Tuning and the like buy the 13A variety - at 30-odd quid a fuse you don't want the risk of one blowing as a result of transformer inrush current ;-) It's not for the risk of them fusing that I buy 13A fuses for all my plugs, it's the fact that, apart from class II products, they nearly all have internal protection of some kind. I don't want two fuses in circuit, both highly non-linear. So the 13A one in the plug protects the power cable and the one in the component protects the component.
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Post by AlanS on Jan 11, 2015 18:52:58 GMT
Ernie has been kind to me so I may go £40 of MCRU's 3 AMR offer and try my amp, DAC and CD. I openly confess that my sceptical mind may prevent me hearing what others do but until you check your thinking and hearing.....
Order placed
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 19:30:57 GMT
It is absolutely impossible for a mains fuse to have any effect on sound quality. Ditto mains cables! As an electronic engineer it's this sort of thing that has me in apoplexy... as I'm sure many know from other sites.
Fuses in speakers and at the output of amplifiers (not in power rails) can and do have a fairly large negative effect though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 19:32:37 GMT
But it brings up another question: most of our gear takes fairly small current. Even a decent size power amp will never take more than 3A, or possibly extremely 5A for a monster class A. But I'll bet that we all just leave the good old 13A fuse in there, even when the mains cord is only (thermally) rated at perhaps 6A. I'd also wager that those who buy esoteric fuses from Hi-Fi Tuning and the like buy the 13A variety - at 30-odd quid a fuse you don't want the risk of one blowing as a result of transformer inrush current ;-) It's not for the risk of them fusing that I buy 13A fuses for all my plugs, it's the fact that, apart from class II products, they nearly all have internal protection of some kind. I don't want two fuses in circuit, both highly non-linear. So the 13A one in the plug protects the power cable and the one in the component protects the component. Yup, I can see the logic in that. The general sort of manufacturer's spec for a 13A fuse is that it has a maximum dissipation of 1W, which implies a nominal resistance of about 6 milliohms at 13A. What is interesting looking at a high quality mains plug (like the MK toughplug) the live connection is riveted to the clip, and the other end of the clip is rivetted to the live pin. There is every possibility that those rivet connections, and the clips themselves might well dominate the overall resistance and power dissipation of the entire assembly. There are pics on the web of melted plugs where the power dissipation through those additional resistances melted the plug before the fuse blew. I don't know what the answer is, other than finding some way of soldering the rivetted connections, cleaning the clips and using deoxit. Or - anyone any direct experience of things like the Furutech mains plug www.furutech.com/2013/02/02/1880/ ? Craig
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Post by MartinT on Jan 11, 2015 20:00:19 GMT
It is absolutely impossible for a mains fuse to have any effect on sound quality. Well, Jez, I'm not going to have a row about it, except that such absolutist statements put you at risk of looking a fool.
Oh, and my degree and the first half of my career were in electronic engineering.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 11, 2015 20:03:48 GMT
Yup, I use them throughout. They have no rivets, just continuous metal from pin to contact.
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Post by jazzbones on Jan 11, 2015 20:16:12 GMT
It is absolutely impossible for a mains fuse to have any effect on sound quality. Ditto mains cables! As an electronic engineer it's this sort of thing that has me in apoplexy... as I'm sure many know from other sites. Fuses in speakers and at the output of amplifiers (not in power rails) can and do have a fairly large negative effect though. Jez, I believe nothing is impossible. Who would think a few decades ago man would live and work on a space station for example, my grandparents would have said, 'rubbish', but they do now travel in space, live, work and play on a space station beyond Earth's gravitational pull. But on a lower level lets look at the design of a bumble be, it has a fat body and titchy wings but it flies doesn't it, it defies belief. I've personally experienced the difference between a well thought out and designed quality cable, mains plug and 13amp fuse that is better than a cheapo get you started one. Rafael Toades, Allegri quartet, classical trained musician thus has a trained ear for hearing both live and reproduced music has put his reputation on the line by saying they do make a difference in his music system. As an electronics engineer you will know about the properties of electricity etc., but when it comes to using the human ear and not a slide rule then your belief is at odds with many respected people. Are you telling me that if I was to take out my old garage kettle's mains lead with tarnished pins, frayed wire and cracked plug and put it on TT PSU duties I would not hear any difference and I'm not talking about a commercial big bucks cable from Nordorst being in my system either? Also, why do some mains cable attract RFI and others don't if all they do is squirt electricity down the wires? Sincerely hope I have not caused you to have another apoplexy fit, take deep deep breaths and remain calm... peace be to all electronic engineers . Ron
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 11, 2015 20:51:52 GMT
Apoplexy is rarely useful or pretty - it's best to avoid it, in my experience. I know for a fact that handling a load of snakes won't bring me closer to God, but some people bet their lives on the idea that it will work for them. I do try not to let it upset me though! Everything will be OK Jez, I promise
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Post by liffy99 on Jan 11, 2015 20:53:22 GMT
Time for a group, randomised control trial ? ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 23:52:37 GMT
It is absolutely impossible for a mains fuse to have any effect on sound quality. Ditto mains cables! As an electronic engineer it's this sort of thing that has me in apoplexy... as I'm sure many know from other sites. Fuses in speakers and at the output of amplifiers (not in power rails) can and do have a fairly large negative effect though. Mains cables can and do influence the component they are feeding. As an electronic engineer, view the mains cable as a mis-terminated transmission line. This has both transmission peaks and deep nulls regularly with frequency. A fortuitous null coinciding with dominant conducted RFI in your location can prevent that from getting into your component, and radiating inside the enclosure from a whole host of processes (a short loop in the ground wire, internal mains wiring etc). That is one of the reasons that mains cables are so system dependent - since each cable has a different characteristic impedance and propagation velocity, the frequency nulls will be different cable to cable. The one that sounds the best will be the one that absorbs whatever the dominant conducted interfering frequency. So a randomised trial cannot work even in principle, since the best cable is absolutely system and interference dependent. A simple example of this is the zzt-zzt-zzt sound that you hear from your speakers when your mobile goes into station search mode. That is high hundreds of MHz getting into your audio frequency amplifier and being demodulated. The situation just got a whole lot worse with broadband over mains, which is now in the high hundreds of MHz. A standard mains filter does absolutely no good at all - the test requirement is for frequencies up to 30MHz, more than an order of magnitude too low. If you don't believe me, use a wideband current probe and have a look at differential and common mode currents in the mains feed to - well anything; an incandescent light bulb does. So - can a mains cable modify the mains RFI getting into audio? Yes, for real electronic engineering reasons. And does it have an effect on the sound quality? You bet. Craig
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 23:57:46 GMT
Yup, I use them throughout. They have no rivets, just continuous metal from pin to contact. That is interesting - I'll buy one and have a try Craig
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Post by Stratmangler on Jan 11, 2015 23:59:35 GMT
I'd just like to point out that the mains fuse in a power lead is there simply to stop the cable from turning into an electric fire element.
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