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Post by MartinT on Oct 30, 2023 20:24:29 GMT
Oh come on everyone, I posted a red flag above and no-one is going to tell me I'm wrong and call me names?  Quad owners, tell me what you like about them. Let's have a debate! |
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Post by petea on Oct 30, 2023 20:58:48 GMT
Oh all right then. You're mad Martin. Complete hogwash. Talking rubbish and couldn't be more wrong!  |
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Post by John on Oct 30, 2023 20:59:41 GMT
I guess with the quads you could always add decent subs. But I presume it would still have issues in the upper bass/lower mids area for me
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Post by julesd68 on Oct 30, 2023 22:08:40 GMT
Oh come on everyone, I posted a red flag above and no-one is going to tell me I'm wrong and call me names? Quad owners, tell me what you like about them. Let's have a debate! Maybe punters are just moving on from the likes of Quad and are acknowledging their weaknesses and appreciating benefits of modern design elsewhere. Of course there are plenty of die hard Tannoy fans around. Took me some time to realise that I wasn't going to keep them forever. |
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Post by MartinT on Oct 30, 2023 22:13:15 GMT
Well, that's interesting for starters, Jules. Quad and Tannoy speakers could hardly sound more different but both have their enthusiastic advocates.
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Post by julesd68 on Oct 30, 2023 22:25:15 GMT
They both offer a limiting view of the musical world that some find appealing by virtue of their strengths. I was so entranced by the beguiling midband of the Tannoys that I tried to forget there wasn't much bass.
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Post by MartinT on Oct 31, 2023 5:30:07 GMT
...or much detail.
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 362
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Post by bencat on Oct 31, 2023 11:59:11 GMT
I believed the perceived view of Quad ESL57 that is often touted , no bass can not be used in a small room , move your head an inch either way and the image collapses . Finally after hearing a set in very strange conditions took a chance bought a cheap pair and sent them to Andrew Jones of AQuadthing Audio for a full rebuild . Then came the find an amp that really works ended up with NVA S300 which just works . They will play Ace Of Spades and the Bass Head Grace Jones 12" Version My Jamaican Guy and sound epic . My room is average they are only around 12 inches from a back wall and still they just make music . Subs with ESL in my view just do not work they are never fast enough or as transparent as the panels . Lots of ESL 57 have not had replacement panels and these drop off in performance after about ten years or so they need to be maintained . Open invitation I am very n Liverpool and you can come and listen to mine see what you think . I am not daft I know they have nothing below 30Hz but what they do produce is in keeping with rest of the spectrum they produce . They never limit what you can play .
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Post by MartinT on Oct 31, 2023 13:48:31 GMT
I believed the perceived view of Quad ESL57 that is often touted , no bass can not be used in a small room , move your head an inch either way and the image collapses . My experience of 57s is very limited. However, I have heard 989s extensively. I know they are not the same and some 57 users look down on them, and they certainly had their strengths in delicacy and small-scale music. What I can say is they didn't do church organ justice and they made rock music sound tame. |
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Post by palace on Oct 31, 2023 16:54:21 GMT
I believed the perceived view of Quad ESL57 that is often touted , no bass can not be used in a small room , move your head an inch either way and the image collapses . My experience of 57s is very limited. However, I have heard 989s extensively. I know they are not the same and some 57 users look down on them, and they certainly had their strengths in delicacy and small-scale music. What I can say is they didn't do church organ justice and they made rock music sound tame. MartinT i appreciate you are attempting to generate discussion, thankfully this forum does not have members with entrenched positions, who insist on attempting to browbeat others into their belief without experience of or listening to the object of discussion. A classic example on other forums are "fuse's" I have replaced where possible glass fuses favouring the same fuse value with quality sand filled ceramic, I have no experience of expensive fuses that others others have bought I would not therefore pass a detrimental comment on them, on my pensions they are a price to far, perhaps until I hear the difference for myself. bencat makes valid points regarding perceived opinions on Quad 57's. As I have written before most amps used with Quad 57's whether new design or "classic" SS or valve for what ever reason very few have the ability to bring out/allow the bass quality that 57's can produce, though they have sublime midrange & treble bencat & I have found amplifiers that allow Quad 57's to flourish, I also have a near perfectly dimensioned room for any speaker & particularly 57's my wife has furnished the lounge with my system in mind, I am able to allow a little more room behind my OTA Quad 57's which are 5" from the side walls facing down the room toed in just a few degrees felt pen marks makes exact placement possible the dozens of other marks made over the last 40 odd years have been removed.
They are also are fitted with Batpure super tweeters in the mouth of a horn, that somehow cleaned and deepened the bass in this room. Again going against perceived lore I can listen off centre and still get a stereo image.
As for the bass on some though not all recordings the bass drum is visceral it genuinely is felt in the chest, a pair of 12" subs they are not but in this room quite surprising. When my friend Mark Manwaring-White a man used to transmission line & large horn speakers first heard the system, he said " So no bass I would have them in a heart beat" recently after I had changed nearly all all of my noval valves to octal Mark came to fettle my Croft phono stage he fitted with SUT's for a Hana ML Mark was again surprised at the even deeper bass.
An old picture of my right side OTA QUAD 57
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Post by MartinT on Oct 31, 2023 19:17:29 GMT
Thank you, I am genuinely relieved to read your passion for the Quad 57s. My experience with the 989s in no way can be applied generally and that is kind of the point I wanted to bring out. It is possible to achieve subtly different objectives with wildly differing system solutions.
I can tell you that I have shaped and moulded my system to the way I want it, itself rather an achievement that comes from years of trial and error. It plays my kinda rock and my kinda classical really, really well - in my opinion. I can also tell you that it doesn't suit all tastes and I know people who like my system a lot and others who carefully never give their opinion. It makes me smile to myself because I do the exact same thing with the many systems I've heard. Some I like, others not so much. After years of hearing megabucks systems, nearly all of which have left me cold, it certainly isn't about the money. Its about the word we use a lot but forget the meaning of: system. A (hopefully) symbiotic matching of components and accessories that is made to work through care and attention to detail. A system which is greater than the sum of its parts.
I know my system makes me happy, just as I know it wouldn't make some others happy. I stopped caring what others think a long time ago. I have a handful of close friends whose ears and opinions I trust and that helps me to hear from another viewpoint. It's good and healthy to maintain other viewpoints.
So back to the question: can you design a system that can play rock and classical equally well? In my case, I would say not quite. My system excels at rock, female voice, electronic and especially live performances. It does scale very well, intimate music like solo instrument and chamber a smidge less well. Is it good enough? For me, yes. Could I improve upon it? By continually tweaking, I'll get it a little better still. Could I get classical up there at the same level as rock? Not without probably changing more of the system than I care to, and possibly by damaging its current performance with rock.
That's as honest as I can put it.
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Post by julesd68 on Oct 31, 2023 21:02:20 GMT
Yes there comes a point whereby all that matters is that your system gives you musical satisfaction. Anything can be bettered with time and money to spare. For the relatively modest sum I paid for my Sonus Fabers I find them eminently suitable for all of the wide range of music I listen to, from Scriabin to Slayer. I do not desire anything else until I move house where I will hopefully be able to fit in some sizeable air shifters that should really up the ante for classical orchestral.
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 2, 2023 11:45:26 GMT
Hello Martin,
I used to think for many years that it was not possible to have a system that was good for both classical or modern music, and in fact even catering for both Jazz and Rock could be difficult. However over the last 7 years my system has gone through various iterations of speakers, amps (tube and SS), improving TTs, arms, cartridges, phono stages, streaming and CDPs. As each aspect was improved also very important I gained a better synergy between components it became noticeable that the rendition improved across the spectrum of musical genres, classical, pop, rock, jazz, and electronic.
From my listening observations I have concluded that the biggest improvement was gained from the loudspeakers and their matching with a good amp/pre-amp set up. I would not say that everything is perfect, that would be silly, however I now enjoy all types of music from my system and can effectively ignore any failings, this would primarily be in very low end bass rendition, of which I only have a few recordings which purport to have much below 50hz.
So I would say that getting the speaker and amp set up right is crucial, and one that you enjoy the sound of, we all hear things differently and our ears/brains are not identical, so its what pleases the individual is what matters. Obviously a good front end that extracts the detail accurately from whatever medium is important, whether vinyl, digital or tape.
Cheers
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Post by MartinT on Nov 2, 2023 11:53:48 GMT
Thanks, Adrian, that pretty much sums up my experience. Like you, it's not perfect, and matching one genre as perfectly as another will never be quite equal, but I think we can both enjoy the music that we like listening to.
One point: the better my low bass has become, the more I realise just how many recordings have significant content below 50Hz.
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Post by John on Nov 2, 2023 12:14:07 GMT
It was my experience with open baffles that the better I isolated the bass the more I got in terms of improvements as well in the audio spectrum
Getting tight controlled bass is not easy but the benefits are worth the effort
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 2, 2023 12:20:59 GMT
It was my experience with open baffles that the better I isolated the bass the more I got in terms of improvements as well in the audio spectrum Getting tight controlled bass is not easy but the benefits are worth the effort Have wondered about this myself, and am considering trying a sub-woofer, I have room limitations and big speaker boxes won't work, I tried this before and SWMBO made it quite clear it was not a long term option. |
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Post by John on Nov 2, 2023 16:11:12 GMT
Integrating subs takes a lot of time to get right
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Post by MartinT on Nov 2, 2023 18:35:23 GMT
Integrating subs takes a lot of time to get right Not half. I had a top of the range REL Studio II with my previous JM Lab Mezzo speakers and, despite the REL's enormous capability, it sounded slow compared with the fast Focal bass driver. I tried lots of setting changes but was never entirely happy with the combination. Happily, the Ushers don't need a sub. |
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Post by John on Nov 2, 2023 18:48:50 GMT
As you know I am not into traditional subs
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Post by John on Nov 3, 2023 8:37:37 GMT
I think bass is interesting for me as I do not listen to a lot of classical or music that has really deep bass. It has been more about getting texture than the really low notes.
If you ever heard low bass without mids treble and upper bass, you mostly hear just rumble, yet for some music this is essential to really make sense of the music.
I imagine one of the reasons big loudspeakers are so rigid is to prevent the bass overpowering the mids and treble with vibration. This is why the podiums on Martin speakers help so much
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