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Post by pinkie on Jul 11, 2014 7:35:11 GMT
If you see a curve here it's that I seem to have reached the limiting performance of my Amp - Cable - Speakers. As a result, my focus has moved elsewhere and I am happy that what I have is delivering 95-100% of what my equipment can achieve.
I won't listen to ridiculously expensive cables such as the Nordost Odin, for instance, because there's no point in listening to any equipment that I cannot afford. I think that probably nicely summarises my feelings on cables generally, but I have a lower threshold, and the cables in this thread, costing more than I paid for the ESL 63's would fall outside that. Next month, Cagey will hopefully be showing me his excellent quality/ value gem he has discovered, and if they make a difference I like, then they can add that bit of refinement for me. In my system, at the moment, with reasonable speaker cables, and cheap as chips interconnects, I am not sitting there feeling unhappy. Not craving a lower noise floor, or feeling there are curtains of grime on my windows to the sound. That isnt to say there are no improvements to be had - just that I am happy for now, and any improvement one day might be a nice refinement but is not life and death. So I can listen to quality equipment through extremely modest cables, and it drops the jaw of most house guests. I don't think I could buy "final statement" cables and hook up cheap as chips turntable amp and speakers and get the same result. Sometimes on cable threads, you could be forgiven for thinking that their enthusiasts think in those terms . Looking forward to Toulouse, Cagey  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 7:57:32 GMT
Marco, I must have missed something, why the animosity, have you tried them? Hi, is it Graeme (if I remember correctly)? There's no animosity from me whatsoever, but it appears others here have some towards Klotz cables, because either it doesn't suit their personal choices or best commercial interests. If Slic cables are considered by some as fantastic, then that's cool, as it's their choice, just as Klotz cables are mine. However, I don't expect to have my choices derided, completely unprovoked, and referred to by fm and Brooksy as being put "Into a big hole in the ground hopefully", or: "Got a pair of those Klotz cables here now and I tried to make a washing line out of them or a dog lead but no luck on either score", as it serves no constructive purpose and indeed only causes the animosity you've referred to. Why were those disparaging remarks necessary?? Let's just use what we want to use and not mock each other’s choices, accept that we all have different sets of tastes and values, whether it’s with cables or anything else, and all will be fine  Btw, hope your move went well and that you're enjoying life in your new surroundings  Marco. Hi Marco (it's Martin BTW). I understand, I didn't realise you used Klotz cables, I thought you were a VDH kinda guy. And I'm not judging anyone's choice, I just didn't get the whole picture until your reply Thanks BTW, still settling in but the move was definitely worth the effort! |
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 11, 2014 7:58:44 GMT
There is a lot of bad noise on this thread.
Richard - in your joining thread, you castigated at least one member (but I think it may have been two) by asking who had made them a moderator. Well, I would thank you to take that advice into account and apply it to yourself. We will do the moderating here.
Realysm42 - this thread shouldn't be sidetracked by Richard's definition of a shill - the place for that is on a separate thread IF that thread can be kept free of baggage from the past AND free of attacks on members here.
Frank - please keep derisory comments about equipment that other people use to yourself.
David - likewise. You shouldn't really have any cause to comment on this thread at all unless someone asks you a specific question about this product.
YOU WILL NOT USE THIS FORUM FOR THE PROMOTION OF YOUR PRODUCTS. YOU WILL NOT DERIDE OTHER PEOPLE'S PRODUCT CHOICES ON THIS FORUM. AND WHILE I'M AT IT, YOU WILL NOT USE THE TACTIC OF IMPLYING THAT PEOPLE'S SYSTEMS ARE NOT HI-FI IF THEY DON'T USE EXPENSIVE (read your) CABLE PRODUCTS (something that I know only too well you like to do).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 8:03:18 GMT
Liking, loathing and indifference should be accepted in equal measure in an ideal world and forum. Agreed. Although there's nothing wrong with discussing why we make those choices. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 11, 2014 8:22:37 GMT
Although there's nothing wrong with discussing why we make those choices. Agreed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 8:30:37 GMT
Fair play Chris.
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Post by AlanS on Jul 11, 2014 8:34:25 GMT
Liking, loathing and indifference should be accepted in equal measure in an ideal world and forum. Agreed. Although there's nothing wrong with discussing why we make those choices. And hopefully why we wouldn't make a choice |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 8:36:38 GMT
Agreed. Although there's nothing wrong with discussing why we make those choices. And hopefully why we wouldn't make a choice Of course! |
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Post by brian2957 on Jul 11, 2014 8:52:25 GMT
There is a lot of bad noise on this thread. Richard - in your joining thread, you castigated at least one member (but I think it may have been two) by asking who had made them a moderator. Well, I would thank you to take that advice into account and apply it to yourself. We will do the moderating here. Realysm42 - this thread shouldn't be sidetracked by Richard's definition of a shill - the place for that is on a separate thread IF that thread can be kept free of baggage from the past AND free of attacks on members here. Frank - please keep derisory comments about equipment that other people use to yourself. David - likewise. You shouldn't really have any cause to comment on this thread at all unless someone asks you a specific question about this product. YOU WILL NOT USE THIS FORUM FOR THE PROMOTION OF YOUR PRODUCTS. YOU WILL NOT DERIDE OTHER PEOPLE'S PRODUCT CHOICES ON THIS FORUM. AND WHILE I'M AT IT, YOU WILL NOT USE THE TACTIC OF IMPLYING THAT PEOPLE'S SYSTEMS ARE NOT HI-FI IF THEY DON'T USE EXPENSIVE (read your) CABLE PRODUCTS (something that I know only too well you like to do). Where's the clapping hands smiley ? Well said Chris |
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Jul 11, 2014 9:06:00 GMT
Hi, is it Graeme (if I remember correctly)? There's no animosity from me whatsoever, but it appears others here have some towards Klotz cables, because either it doesn't suit their personal choices or best commercial interests. If Slic cables are considered by some as fantastic, then that's cool, as it's their choice, just as Klotz cables are mine. However, I don't expect to have my choices derided, completely unprovoked, and referred to by fm and Brooksy as being put "Into a big hole in the ground hopefully", or: "Got a pair of those Klotz cables here now and I tried to make a washing line out of them or a dog lead but no luck on either score", as it serves no constructive purpose and indeed only causes the animosity you've referred to. Why were those disparaging remarks necessary?? Let's just use what we want to use and not mock each other’s choices, accept that we all have different sets of tastes and values, whether it’s with cables or anything else, and all will be fine Btw, hope your move went well and that you're enjoying life in your new surroundings Marco. Hi Marco (it's Martin BTW). I understand, I didn't realise you used Klotz cables, I thought you were a VDH kinda guy. And I'm not judging anyone's choice, I just didn't get the whole picture until your reply Thanks BTW, still settling in but the move was definitely worth the effort! Hi Martin, Sorry I didn't get your name right. Glad you've settled in well. My last post wasn't directed at you, so no worries. I only use VDH as speaker cables - all my other cables are from various different manufacturers. In terms of listening to Slic (which you asked me about), I had an agreement with someone on AoS for us to swap cables for a while (my Klotz for his Slic), which would've allowed both me to assess the Slic and him to assess the Klotz (with my choice of plugs, from MS Audio), and report our (frank and honest) findings on the forum, which of course would've been interesting, but said person reneged on our agreement, as a result of the Slic cable supplier not wanting me to have any access to them. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that happened, but it seems that, for some traders, only 'rave reviews' of certain products are acceptable, and honest opinions of them, if they're in any way critical, are unwelcome. I shall say no more on the matter! Marco. |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 11, 2014 9:11:50 GMT
My point is it is the same people as it was at AoS and it will go the same way. The forum is being used. Nothing aggressive about that, just reality. But to accuse me of aggression deflects the agenda. It is all a game with a profit motive, and £500 for an interconnect is a level of profit to justify it. Richard, are you not considering producing a cable called T.I.S. (The Interconnect Statement) that will be retailed at "pretty near SLIC type prices" with a base cost for the cable of £12/m. Yes considering, but it has the same profit percentage as any other thing I produce. It will not and never will be shilled by plants on forums. Where as this is a product that is lent around with no price to judge it by, so that the constant wanking by the plants can create an opportunity to price it as high as possible. This is the second time the forums have been USED for this process. EDIT - just noticed your cost comment. You are in error! It is costing me nearly £2000 to buy the raw cable just for the first few to see if I want to put it into production. |
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Post by danielquinn on Jul 11, 2014 9:13:05 GMT
Slic is £995 for a 3 meter pair - All it seems to be available in at present
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 11, 2014 9:23:06 GMT
Hi Marco (it's Martin BTW). I understand, I didn't realise you used Klotz cables, I thought you were a VDH kinda guy. And I'm not judging anyone's choice, I just didn't get the whole picture until your reply Thanks BTW, still settling in but the move was definitely worth the effort! Hi Martin, Sorry I didn't get your name right. Glad you've settled in well. My last post wasn't directed at you, so no worries. I only use VDH as speaker cables - all my other cables are from various different manufacturers. In terms of listening to Slic (which you asked me about), I had an agreement with someone on AoS for us to swap cables for a while (my Klotz for his Slic), which would've allowed both me to assess the Slic and him to assess the Klotz (with my choice of plugs, from MS Audio), and report our (frank and honest) findings on the forum, which of course would've been interesting, but said person reneged on our agreement, as a result of the Slic cable supplier not wanting me to have any access to them. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that happened, but it seems that, for some traders, only 'rave reviews' of certain products are acceptable, and honest opinions of them, if they're in any way critical, are unwelcome. I shall say no more on the matter! Marco. For once I thoroughly agree with you. It is watching that farce going on at AoS, following some ridiculous posting at HFS by Frank that has prompted my comments. EDIT - and regarding my definition of a Shill, well when a manufacturer can tell a customer what he should do with the cable he supplies him, then it is obvious the relationship goes beyond a normal one. Normally that means the supplier still owns it or has given it or loaned it long term as a gift for services rendered  I can see no other logical explanation than the man is a bought and sold Shill. |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 11, 2014 9:32:57 GMT
Slic is £995 for a 3 meter pair - All it seems to be available in at present I am going on what Martin said when he reviewed it saying he didn't know the cost. |
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hobnob
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Post by hobnob on Jul 11, 2014 9:38:23 GMT
The very fact that access to SLIC is being restricted as Marco indicates should tell anyone all they need to know. It reminds me of boxers who built a reputation by being fed pushovers whilst being kept well away from anyone who will shatter the myth and knock them out.
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Jul 11, 2014 10:03:57 GMT
Just to comment on this, Richard, as the information I'm going to give is important, in terms of any accusations of shilling: "EDIT - and regarding my definition of a Shill, well when a manufacturer can tell a customer what he should do with the cable he supplies him, then it is obvious the relationship goes beyond a normal one. Normally that means the supplier still owns it or has given it or loaned it long term as a gift for services rendered I can see no other logical explanation than the man is a bought and sold Shill." I make no comments about shilling, but I was told by the person who was going to loan me his Slic cables that, as he was now employed to aid the Slic cable supplier solder the cables he's sold (helping out with the backlog of jobs, as it were), he himself had no problem sending me the cables for a listen, but didn't want to piss off the trader in question (who didn't want me to have them), as he was now effectlvely his employer. Make of that what you will. I simply wanted to add that fact to the equation, and will now step out from the discussion. Marco. |
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Post by danielquinn on Jul 11, 2014 10:10:03 GMT
The very fact that access to SLIC is being restricted as Marco indicates should tell anyone all they need to know. It reminds me of boxers who built a reputation by being fed pushovers whilst being kept well away from anyone who will shatter the myth and knock them out. This is not strictly true . It may tell you something about the relationship between the sender and the receiver , but a refusal per se does not automatically taint the cable .
What does taint the cable are the advocates hitherto . never in my life have I read such a disjointed ,contradictory, vague , incoherent and ambiguous descriptions of the efficacy of this cable . Slic , more like Laurel And Hardy .
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hobnob
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Post by hobnob on Jul 11, 2014 10:13:55 GMT
Thanks for sharing that, Marco, I don't remember seeing those details anywhere before.
If an individual was actually employed by the maker but didn't disclose the fact openly when writing about his products, I'd find it hard to view anything they said at face value.
As for the maker, sitting back and letting an employee give rave reviews and effectively pose as a normal customer is also surely against forum rules and also of questionable legality as I understand it.
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Post by Dave on Jul 11, 2014 10:16:41 GMT
The very fact that access to SLIC is being restricted as Marco indicates should tell anyone all they need to know. It reminds me of boxers who built a reputation by being fed pushovers whilst being kept well away from anyone who will shatter the myth and knock them out. Indeed... For all I know SLIC cables may bring forth choirs of angels and instigate the second coming because for 500 quid they'd damned well ought to, and where does anyone get off charging nearly a 'k' for speaker cables???. Even if I could afford a pair I wouldn't buy them because I could not bring myself to pay that amount for two lengths of copper and 4 plugs but that's my personal opinion, others will differ. Incidentally, I'm not solely picking on SLIC cables here but any cable which retails for 'silly' money. |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 11, 2014 10:17:27 GMT
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