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Post by brettj on Nov 1, 2022 7:38:45 GMT
I understand a few basic things about improving power to your system.
Like:
A separate line if possible.
Linear power supplies, according to need and budget.
Snap chokes on SMPS.
Mains filters around things like routers, fridges etc.
But what I know little about are the bigger things that help deliver clean power.
Regenerators? Power conditioners? Isolation transformers?
What are the function/differences/applications/need for these?
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Post by MartinT on Nov 1, 2022 8:13:31 GMT
A regenerator does as it suggests: it creates a new clean power waveform, either starting from scratch by converting the incoming power to DC and using a big amplifier (inefficient), or by 'repairing' the waveform on the fly using a tracking amplifier. The PS Audio regenerators use the latter method.
Power filters or 'conditioners' cannot repair the waveform, all they do is filter out high-frequency noise and prevent it from getting into the power rails.
Balanced transformers remove the DC from the AC line, often improving sound quality by just doing this. They may additionally have a noise filtering effect.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 1, 2022 9:33:48 GMT
Mains is rubbish infested to a greater or lesser degree depending on where you are
DC on the mains can cause problems
Grounding boxes may well be improving the mains. Certainly improves the sound
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Post by brettj on Nov 1, 2022 9:34:11 GMT
I guess the regenerators are rather large, for the componentry required.
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Post by brettj on Nov 1, 2022 9:38:24 GMT
Luckily residential, suburbs, but a city.
NZ big (which means 10 mins drive to the centre of town).
So still the possible benefit of cleaning the mains some more.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 1, 2022 9:42:28 GMT
We're down a country lane, off a country lane off another country lane
Power comes in overhead
My mains issues could fill a book
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Post by brettj on Nov 1, 2022 9:51:15 GMT
We're down a country lane, off a country lane off another country lane Images of 'The Holiday' spring to mind... |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 1, 2022 10:13:40 GMT
I guess the regenerators are rather large, for the componentry required. The PS Audio P3 I use for my source components is no larger than a big integrated amp. It also has arguably the biggest impact on sound. I would sacrifice my much larger P10 (driving the power amp) before I let the P3 go. |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Nov 1, 2022 10:56:49 GMT
I feel Audiophile neuvosa more than creeping in, careful your teetering on the edge, its a long way down that rabit hole and it's a bumpy ride. Ideally start with a deicated consumer unit, individaul feed to double sockets 32amp (28-32mA sensitivity) 6mm T & E, you guys have switchless sockets anyway. This is a great place to start and is on the whole a better cost option. After this, a quality DC blocker dual differenital a/c filter will help no end. After that a Stromtank, you will not need the large one trust me. *note* humorous comment in that sentance. But do employ the service of an EE who can accurately look at your mains to see what EXACTLY are your issues and address them correctly for your circumstanices and how to address them. I have a few clients who use a big balanced power transformer AFTER a PS audio P20 as they feel they have far to much volatage and that the regulated 230vac output from the ps audio is the only way to get their rather large BPT to function correctly. A mian regenerator cannot fill in the troughs of a a/c wave defficency unless you have as specialist circuit with a large reserve. You can regulate the incoming voltage to a more desirable one and have a more desriable a/v sine wave yes. However they do not suit every circumstance, here they are a backwards step, I lose tonal quality, texture and flow, yes the noise floor can be lower than not using one and the spatiality can improve along with the bass depth and tightness. In some cases this can be a bonus. What you may find is a combination of methodoloy is required to put a smileon yourt face. Brett you will gain more by have a correct support system with space and proper cable routing, this will cost less and deliery more at the moment.
No we do not sell these devices:
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Post by mattspl on Nov 1, 2022 11:12:57 GMT
I’ve often wondered would installing power factor correction on the incoming mains help a Hifi when big amplifiers are looking for current.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 1, 2022 11:32:31 GMT
A mian regenerator cannot fill in the troughs of a a/c wave defficency unless you have as specialist circuit with a large reserve. You can regulate the incoming voltage to a more desirable one and have a more desriable a/v sine wave yes. It can if it's designed properly. If the output voltage is set to, say, 230V while the incoming is usually 240-250V, then there is headroom for the regenerator to do exactly that, fill in the troughs. That's how the PS Audio regenerators work, by repairing on the fly. My incoming mains is often quite high, peaking at 250V, while the regenerator's output remains a rock-steady 230V and the waveform is visibly repaired compared with the input. You can see the distorted input below, compared with the repaired output (this was before I set the output to 230V for even better results).   |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Nov 1, 2022 11:36:02 GMT
I’ve often wondered would installing power factor correction on the incoming mains help a Hifi when big amplifiers are looking for current. Helpful Matt |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Nov 1, 2022 12:44:18 GMT
A mian regenerator cannot fill in the troughs of a a/c wave defficency unless you have as specialist circuit with a large reserve. You can regulate the incoming voltage to a more desirable one and have a more desriable a/v sine wave yes. It can if it's designed properly. If the output voltage is set to, say, 230V while the incoming is usually 240-250V, then there is headroom for the regenerator to do exactly that, fill in the troughs. That's how the PS Audio regenerators work, by repairing on the fly. My incoming mains is often quite high, peaking at 250V, while the regenerator's output remains a rock-steady 230V and the waveform is visibly repaired compared with the input. You can see the distorted input below, compared with the repaired output (this was before I set the output to 230V for even better results). I feel you mistunderstood what I was indicating Martin, it cannot fill in the dips IE below 220Vac (Unless specifically design for ) as I mentioned use and many others are using it as a mains regulator. I did mention to you a few years ago about setting the voltage to 230Vac as most (not all ) Tx's are 230 rated and you did feel it produced benefical results. You are showing the removal of the truncated portion of the wave form. I am talking about voltage sag.
You have been for some time now been able to fit genuine mains 230Vac reglators to your CU end (Sparky certified fit only) this has the effect of blowing a lot less bulbs, many Tx are getting saturated and buzzing is almost eliminated due to the standeriaztion of the voltage to 230Vac and the fluctuations in lighting circuits are greatly reduced.
Only a few few mains treatment devices have the able to 'fill in' line sag such as the Stromtank.
Below is the mains taken from my lab last year ideally it should look like a sinve wave, not truncated at the peak's and the trough's also the RMS (Root Mean Square) peak to peak figure for UK mains should be 680Vac as you can see its near 655Vac. All measurments taken wit zero load applied
Below is a zoomed in section of the measured waveform and you can clearly see the effect of mains bourne interference which is polluting your supply.
Now this was taken using one of our lab a/c power supplies which and order's of magnitude in therms of accuracy and drift improved on consumers units, you can clearly see the 'ideal sine wave form' that is being output. The can achieve this from 1-450Vac here in the lab with frequencies from 25-1000Hz and current rating up to 100amps.
Also its very close to the genuine RMS PK<>PK figure 
Last slide you can see the zoomed in wave form of the lab PSU its pretty close to the 'ideal' also not we are using 12 bits scopes whch are 16 times more accurate then 8 bit scopes so its a very crisp clean wave form due to the the lab PSU's performance.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 1, 2022 15:27:33 GMT
Yes, 230V does produce a beneficial result and I've been using it that way since you suggested it.
Luckily, dips/sag almost never happens here since the village substation was replaced a few years back, and there is a lot less noise on the line.
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Post by daytona600 on Nov 1, 2022 21:43:33 GMT
Off Grid PV get rid of the mains
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Post by MartinT on Nov 1, 2022 21:58:11 GMT
I'd love to. Maybe my next place.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Nov 1, 2022 22:12:06 GMT
Off Grid PV get rid of the mains How have you overcome the inverter switching noise at 48Vdc to 230vac especially above 10kv? Also battery reserve and rail noise suppression |
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Post by brettj on Nov 2, 2022 2:30:28 GMT
I feel Audiophile nervosa more than creeping in, careful you're teetering on the edge, it's a long way down that rabbit hole and it's a bumpy ride. I'm already there. And this is way better than addiction to drugs, gambling or alcohol. And to be honest, I believe more satisfying. Luckily once pieces are purchased that improve my system - and suit my tastes, space and budget - I don't keep looking for something better to replace them. Amp, network switch, streamer, DDC, Dac, speakers and cables are sorted. In my mind that's a good place to be. I ask questions of concepts, equipment, things I don't understand. Asking people I trust, to share their knowledge and experiences. The information I receive percolates for awhile before I make a decision (if I make one at all). I am certainly limited by my system space, that is true. But I have and will work around that (it's not currently going to change). |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 2, 2022 6:05:13 GMT
It also requires a lot of research as not everything can be demo'd. In NZ, you're probably even more isolated than we are. You need to cut through the manufacturer bullshit, find user reviews and amalgamate them through a big filter. It's fun, and small boutique items are harder still to get a proper perspective on. I enjoy it and make decisions over a long period of time as I don't like getting it wrong these days.
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Post by brettj on Nov 4, 2022 8:21:54 GMT
It also requires a lot of research as not everything can be demo'd. In NZ, you're probably even more isolated than we are. You need to cut through the manufacturer bullshit, find user reviews and amalgamate them through a big filter. It's fun, and small boutique items are harder still to get a proper perspective on. I enjoy it and make decisions over a long period of time as I don't like getting it wrong these days. Research is key being in NZ. That's how I fell upon the Perreaux amp, ATC speakers, Mad Scientist products, Audience AU24Sx cables. Most others have been by discussion/suggestions. You are right about boutique items. Purchasing the Auditorium 23 speaker cables is an example. Just looking at power upgrade next year. Saw a Denafrips BIC500 which got me thinking. Take Tony's point about sorting out cabling, but was going to do that anyway. |
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