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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 9, 2019 16:29:15 GMT
I choose kit by listening to music. There has to be something measurements can give us though. Can be an indicator and useful We all probably agree good specs can give a poor sound. Bad specs a good one. We measure say Amps, Ohms, Volts What makes a piece of kit with poor or so so specs sound good ? The thing/s we are *not* measuring. The ears and brain know it. The other criteria have not been applied. RFI, vibration, DC on the mains, other rubbish on the mains, isolation from the system itself, isolation from the rest of the world and one or ninety nine more If and when the multitude of criteria are expanded we can choose kit on specs - maybe  Or can we ? |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 9, 2019 17:11:14 GMT
Measurements can help, of course they can establish basic performance parameters. However, I'm afraid we currently don't have sufficient grasp of how to measure what our brain senses in music. As I responded yesterday in PFM to a particularly tunnel-visioned member there:
Until we have the answers to these questions, then choosing equipment by listening is the only way. Remember Quad's "perfect wire with gain" as the description of their amplifier? Do we all have Quads now?
'nuff said.
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Post by John on Feb 9, 2019 17:20:07 GMT
I try to stay away from the subjectivist vs objectivist debate it always seems so circular. All I will say is that I enjoy listening to music first
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Post by MartinT on Feb 9, 2019 17:57:36 GMT
I just don't think there's a viable debate John. The objectivists will go and buy boxes based on specs and convince themselves that their system sounds perfect. There is no point in arguing!
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Post by SteveC on Feb 9, 2019 19:47:17 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Feb 9, 2019 22:11:22 GMT
Remember when amplifier damping factor was all the rage? "Oh, it only has 50? I think I'll choose another model, then".
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Post by Slinger on Feb 9, 2019 22:32:03 GMT
As an "outsider" to all this hi-fi guff, I've never been able to work out how there can actually be an argument. If an amp makes my music sound shite I couldn't care less if it can make an oscilloscope sit up and beg, shake hands, and then pop out to the kitchen and bring me back a cup of coffee, my music still sounds shite. I don't want shite music. Conversely, if my music sounds great and somebody tells me that it can't sound great because "the numbers don't lie" I'm going to get rid of the idiot, not the amp.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 9, 2019 23:14:54 GMT
The only bit of kit I ever really looked at measurements for was my Topping D30 DAC.
I read that it supposedly measured well but I wouldn't have bought it on that basis alone - it was Jerry's recommendation that really piqued my interest.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 7:04:38 GMT
What measurements would someone say are important when designing equipment. Are there any designers out there that just trust in measurements alone when designing equipment
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Feb 10, 2019 9:01:55 GMT
May be wrong, but I think I recall reading somewhere the designer of LFD kit never listens to it, just designs by specs and measurement.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 10, 2019 9:29:31 GMT
... and price. 😂
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Post by speedysteve on Feb 10, 2019 9:44:25 GMT
Remember when amplifier damping factor was all the rage? "Oh, it only has 50? I think I'll choose another model, then". Damping factor is applicable to what you are trying to control. Eg. 15" LF drivers need a high damping factor. Thin aluminium, titanium, CF or phenolic diaphram compression drivers do not. Hence one number does not fit all. |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 10, 2019 10:10:16 GMT
I understand what it measures. However, if it was an overall level of 'goodness' all valve amplifiers would be finished.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 10, 2019 11:39:33 GMT
I've learned a lot more about kit in the past couple of years.
All of it teaches me how much I don't know.
The grounding box craziness illustrates that well.
Even the guys that know what they are talking about don't have anywhere near the full picture.
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Post by SteveC on Feb 10, 2019 11:59:42 GMT
Grounding boxes explained!
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Post by DaveC on Feb 10, 2019 12:08:47 GMT
The question is also an invalid assertion. Only an engineer can answer the question that was probably meant to be asked. But they are unlikely to do that unless talking to to another engineer.
Of course, see my signature below !
Dave
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Post by speedysteve on Feb 10, 2019 12:31:24 GMT
I understand what it measures. However, if it was an overall level of 'goodness' all valve amplifiers would be finished. I agree with that |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 10, 2019 13:01:48 GMT
Conversely, Big beefcake amps like the first Hitachi MOSFET power amp would be wonderful, whereas actually it's the most unmusical thing you can imagine.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 10, 2019 13:55:04 GMT
There must be a spec in there to give us a clue
Any clues ?
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Post by MartinT on Feb 10, 2019 14:07:32 GMT
Peak instantaneous current for a power amp. Intermodulation distortion could point to an under-spec power supply.
Frankly, you would need to listen to it anyway.
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