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Post by MartinT on Feb 16, 2018 18:05:48 GMT
Ok then, interconnects at least were considered much the same, and no-one thought that power cables made a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 19:01:32 GMT
Interesting, does it work? How in fact can it work? Let’s look a5 what we know. Can paint be a RAM or radiation absorbing material? Well yes it can since WW2 when the Germans used paint formulated to absorb 20cm Radar in used by the Royal Navy to treat U Boat periscopes, paint containing iron balls and graphite has been used as RAM. There is a latex based paint containing ceramic balls, called “Acousti-paint” that has been on sale for a while, this is used to treat metal structures to stop them from ringing.
What we we also know is that open cell foam board is a great acoustic absorber and can break up reflections and standing waves very well, without any special paint. The other thing we need to look at is the sound quality of the you tube clip, the flutter echo demonstration sounds, in my opinion more like a digital reverb has been added, than the result of a flutter echo, but I’m the first to admit Imwas not there and I don’t know how it was mike’d up. Certainly the first part with voice in one channel, music in the other sounds a bit flaky itself, again I stress this is opinion. Now unlike fuses and mains cables, which I can hear work in my system (and the fact that Richard (Pinkie) thinks they are snake oil, which would make me give them the benefit of the doubt), I have not heard these, or compared them to Rockwool or opencell foam, which I know work.
The question I would like answered is why they did not compare the treated and untreated boards and the paint on a hard surface or a soft one. I have an open mind, but at over $500.00 plus shipping for a set of 4 small panels, I’m not going to find out too soon, I may order a tin of Acoustic-paint at $53.00 and do some tests however.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 19:15:56 GMT
Not sure if it was missed, but my comment about this paint being "peelable" was a joke. It was in response to Scotty saying at least you could send the fuses back for refund! There's nothing I can see to link this product with plastidip. As for posting to "get a rise" out of people elsewhere, I genuinely thought the idea of acoustic paint to be novel. I found the video on SR's Facebook page just yesterday: The first time I'd visited. These products are being bought by recording studios, so I'm not sure why anyone would think they would be no better than a bit of foam board......At least without hearing it. It seems the sceptics aren't averse to a bit of telepathy or mind-reading if they are up for deciding what my intentions were for posting. Pity they don't show the same open-mindedness towards other non-measurable phenomena  Oh, BTW I still use my PWB CD damper every time I spin a disc. It's better all the others I've tried over many years, even he Marigo Labs which was next best. It too came on a free return basis. Loads of people have heard it and I can't recall anyone not hearing an improvement. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 19:21:50 GMT
Interesting, does it work? How in fact can it work? Let’s look a5 what we know. Can paint be a RAM or radiation absorbing material? Well yes it can since WW2 when the Germans used paint formulated to absorb 20cm Radar in used by the Royal Navy to treat U Boat periscopes, paint containing iron balls and graphite has been used as RAM. There is a latex based paint containing ceramic balls, called “Acousti-paint” that has been on sale for a while, this is used to treat metal structures to stop them from ringing. What we we also know is that open cell foam board is a great acoustic absorber and can break up reflections and standing waves very well, without any special paint. The other thing we need to look at is the sound quality of the you tube clip, the flutter echo demonstration sounds, in my opinion more like a digital reverb has been added, than the result of a flutter echo, but I’m the first to admit Imwas not there and I don’t know how it was mike’d up. Certainly the first part with voice in one channel, music in the other sounds a bit flaky itself, again I stress this is opinion. Now unlike fuses and mains cables, which I can hear work in my system (and the fact that Richard (Pinkie) thinks they are snake oil, which would make me give them the benefit of the doubt), I have not heard these, or compared them to Rockwool or opencell foam, which I know work. The question I would like answered is why they did not compare the treated and untreated boards and the paint on a hard surface or a soft one. I have an open mind, but at over $500.00 plus shipping for a set of 4 small panels, I’m not going to find out too soon, I may order a tin of Acoustic-paint at $53.00 and do some tests however. I couldn't find the SR paint price listed anywhere, Paul. Is the $53 the price for SR paint or the other one you mention? When I kitted my echo chamber of a room out, I tried looking to see if such a thing as acoustic paint even existed, but I didn't succeed. If you have any links at all, I'd be interested. Sticking bits all,over the walls isn't exactly elegant, so I'd be up for trying some paint too. |
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Post by scotty38 on Feb 16, 2018 19:23:30 GMT
I think it's been asked 3 times now, why not compare painted and unpainted boards? The fact they painted the boards and then removed them to do the clap test is unbelievable beyond words. If nobody can, or is unwilling to, address this then this product, and the company, needs to be consigned to the bin....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 19:44:10 GMT
I agree that it would've been far more instructive if we'd had unpainted and painted boards or painted/unpainted walls compared in the clip. The fact that we don't get to see this comparison doesn't necessarily mean the company and its products should be consigned to the bin. I've made YouTube videos myself and changes in amps, turntables and CD players weren't audible upon playback. It's not for me or anyone else here to answer for SR though. Questions should be directed to them.
Plenty people have paid for and kept the fuses. Recording Studios have bought the panels. I wouldn't judge either client base harshly without trying the products myself.
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Post by scotty38 on Feb 16, 2018 19:52:17 GMT
I can't disagree with what you've said but I still find it utterly bizarre that a company would promote a product in such a clearly flawed manner that speaks volumes to those with any degree of scepticism.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:11:00 GMT
I agree. The vid was always likely to fuel the sceptics.
I've been a bit obsessed with room treatments since I went from never believing I could even get a listenable sound again to achieving something really good. That was just with ordinary acoustic foam in limited places because of its visual impact.
I'd have posted about acoustic paint whoever had made it. The fact that it's by SR probably bothers other more than It does me. I haven't tried any of their products yet, but I will try fuses when I get the chance. I might even try the room treatments when I get settled if they are available sale or return. I'd definitely try acoustic paint if it was less than £100, or perhaps even more if the SR room treatments made enough improvement for me to be confident it would work well. No way I'd be painting foam boards to hang though. That seems to defeat the object of making a paint. I'd want the room treatments to be invisible if possible.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 16, 2018 20:13:35 GMT
Ok then, interconnects at least were considered much the same, and no-one thought that power cables made a difference. I suppose it was taken that properly designed screened cables would all do a similar job and broadly, I don't think much has changed if you take the fancy looking plugs and posh cable jackets away. having said that I still use my purchased NVA TIS cable and it does seem to make a repeatable difference for one reason or another.
Power cables don't make a difference if they're properly specified for the task. Mind you, if the gear they're plugged into has problems, then it's anyone's guess, especially if they're dressed up to look the prices asked Sadly, the heavy cables that came as standard with Krell and Levinson aren't available from wholesalers it seems, although I must admit I haven't looked very hard. Anyway, the Mark Grant one for fifty quid is all I suspect many of us really need and that is specified with no 'foo' in its marketing and he builds them well...
I can't prove what I'm saying, so it's just words posted on a thread. I've seen this over so many years now and as many UK dealers are having a hard time of it, especially those selling gear nobody's ever heard of, these add-ons can make a tidy sum when factored in to their annual profit.
Spica - I rail against the garbage spouted on their forum concerning every product they peddle. They 'tell' you what you're going to 'hear' and offer no proper reason why this might be. hell, even NVA products have perfectly fine and fair reasons they do what they do so well - and no confusing bull to describe it either. My geriatric Crown amps are more complex due to the extra supply regulation at each gain stage for their original bomb-proof reliable Pro intentions, but it's all there in black and white and proper reasons given WHY they do what they do - with no psychobabble to fool the unwary.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:21:09 GMT
Interesting, does it work? How in fact can it work? Let’s look a5 what we know. Can paint be a RAM or radiation absorbing material? Well yes it can since WW2 when the Germans used paint formulated to absorb 20cm Radar in used by the Royal Navy to treat U Boat periscopes, paint containing iron balls and graphite has been used as RAM. There is a latex based paint containing ceramic balls, called “Acousti-paint” that has been on sale for a while, this is used to treat metal structures to stop them from ringing. What we we also know is that open cell foam board is a great acoustic absorber and can break up reflections and standing waves very well, without any special paint. The other thing we need to look at is the sound quality of the you tube clip, the flutter echo demonstration sounds, in my opinion more like a digital reverb has been added, than the result of a flutter echo, but I’m the first to admit Imwas not there and I don’t know how it was mike’d up. Certainly the first part with voice in one channel, music in the other sounds a bit flaky itself, again I stress this is opinion. Now unlike fuses and mains cables, which I can hear work in my system (and the fact that Richard (Pinkie) thinks they are snake oil, which would make me give them the benefit of the doubt), I have not heard these, or compared them to Rockwool or opencell foam, which I know work. The question I would like answered is why they did not compare the treated and untreated boards and the paint on a hard surface or a soft one. I have an open mind, but at over $500.00 plus shipping for a set of 4 small panels, I’m not going to find out too soon, I may order a tin of Acoustic-paint at $53.00 and do some tests however. I couldn't find the SR paint price listed anywhere, Paul. Is the $53 the price for SR paint or the other one you mention? When I kitted my echo chamber of a room out, I tried looking to see if such a thing as acoustic paint even existed, but I didn't succeed. If you have any links at all, I'd be interested. Sticking bits all,over the walls isn't exactly elegant, so I'd be up for trying some paint too. SR don’t appear to sell the paint, just the boards treated with it. Acoustic-paint is available from many places including Amazon. In the UK it’s called Acoustic-Coat. I can’t say if and in fact I doubt it’s exactly the same thing. I think the foam core panel on its own might work as well TBH. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:30:21 GMT
Thanks Paul. I'll try some. I'd far rather not have panels on the walls. White paint will be invisible and satisfy my OCD  |
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 16, 2018 20:35:38 GMT
Yes, but cast your mind back a few years. Weren't cables and supports considered 'suspect' and 'implausible' not so long ago? Have the T shirt. I remember when Monster speaker cable came out - "speaker cable makes the music sound better" Not possible My Linn Naim system being installed with a Sound Org table for "listening to" ?! Listened - "it makes a difference, how is that possible ?" |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 16, 2018 20:50:11 GMT
having said that I still use my purchased NVA TIS cable and it does seem to make a repeatable difference for one reason or another . . . Power cables don't make a difference if they're properly specified for the task My point exactly, then you miss it the second time around. Never mind, perhaps the TIS example is enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 20:54:37 GMT
Ok then, interconnects at least were considered much the same, and no-one thought that power cables made a difference. I suppose it was taken that properly designed screened cables would all do a similar job and broadly, I don't think much has changed if you take the fancy looking plugs and posh cable jackets away. having said that I still use my purchased NVA TIS cable and it does seem to make a repeatable difference for one reason or another.
Power cables don't make a difference if they're properly specified for the task. Mind you, if the gear they're plugged into has problems, then it's anyone's guess, especially if they're dressed up to look the prices asked Sadly, the heavy cables that came as standard with Krell and Levinson aren't available from wholesalers it seems, although I must admit I haven't looked very hard. Anyway, the Mark Grant one for fifty quid is all I suspect many of us really need and that is specified with no 'foo' in its marketing and he builds them well...
I can't prove what I'm saying, so it's just words posted on a thread. I've seen this over so many years now and as many UK dealers are having a hard time of it, especially those selling gear nobody's ever heard of, these add-ons can make a tidy sum when factored in to their annual profit.
Spica - I rail against the garbage spouted on their forum concerning every product they peddle. They 'tell' you what you're going to 'hear' and offer no proper reason why this might be. hell, even NVA products have perfectly fine and fair reasons they do what they do so well - and no confusing bull to describe it either. My geriatric Crown amps are more complex due to the extra supply regulation at each gain stage for their original bomb-proof reliable Pro intentions, but it's all there in black and white and proper reasons given WHY they do what they do - with no psychobabble to fool the unwary.
Some interesting albeit unrelated points: 1. Is there an SR forum? If so I will google it. Sounds like you've already posted, so I'm looking forward to reading it. 2. You say "power cables don't make a difference". That doesn't sound like an opinion: It's stating it as fact. The same thing I, DQ and others have challenged you for before. It sounds very much like Peter Walker's "All competently designed amps....." Pronouncement. IMO It's not really helpful and appears to be declaring your truth as universal. What about those who find they hear differences? Are they hearing "wrong", or are their cables or kit just not up to scratch? Could it not simply be that they hear differences and you don't? Why not let others have different opinions and be happy with that? 3. You didn't address your former assertion that I started this thread to get a rise out of people elsewhere. Again a pronouncement based on your "truth". Problem is, I am the only one who knows my own motives, unless you are truly telepathic. If you look back at my posts over the past few months you will see repeated interest in room treatment. You will also see pics of ugly acoustic tiles. You will also find me complaining about people being sent here from HFS on "errands". I'm the last one to encourage input from HFS: Let alone attract interest deliberately by starting a thread. Frankly I think RD should get on with his own life and look to generate interesting threads on his own forum instead of staring through the window here and heckling by proxy. Do you really expect me to censor my posts here for fear of causing upset on another forum? Really? Well at least you made me chuckle! |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 17, 2018 0:04:49 GMT
Martin my view on fuses is based on known science. If you want to show a single measurement to show any difference in sound then I'm all ears. Show a single valid measure and I'm more than happy to accept they might possibly make a difference. That's how science works, ill review my position at any time. But I'm not interested in fanciful opinions based on sighted tests, been there done that, proved I don't have magic ears by failing double blinds and moved on.
But enjoy your fuses.
On the subject of paint. Its paint, a thin coating, at best it could provide viscous damping of the panels. Its not a black hole, or dark matter. It has a little mass and that's about it. If its plastidip then it will add a little tension to the boards, but only a tiny amount.
You're free to believe anything you want, until someone announces a new branch of science i'll continue beleiving that their "designer" is full of shit and preys on the gullible and easily deceived.
Its funny how people with "faith" in products have so little it doesn't stand up to questioning.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2018 9:55:16 GMT
I said "Power cables don't make a difference *if they're properly specified for the task*
Perhaps to soothe your sensibilities I should have said *shouldn't* instead of *don't* as it's less absolute. My Mark Grant cable is powering a rather full distribution block, so I feel it's fine here.
I think we should all start to go hear live acoustic music a bit more and put all these stereo system add-ons into perpective.
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Post by Tim on Feb 17, 2018 10:18:27 GMT
I think we should all start to go hear live acoustic music a bit more and put all these stereo system add-ons into perspective. Oh, if only - then some folk might find out what music actually sounds like. Having said that and as Pinkie has alluding too elsewhere, not that simple. We have the love of music, the love of HiFi, a mix of the two and a massive grey expanse in the middle. Very few of us share the exact same ground IMO - and how honest are we about where we actually are |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 17, 2018 11:42:24 GMT
Martin my view on fuses is based on known science. There is no understanding to correlate what we hear with what we can measure. Oh, and my view on fuses is based on listening. |
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Post by TheMooN on Feb 17, 2018 12:12:04 GMT
Coming here is getting to be a lot like going to Church - you turn up, and you're presented with a load of suspect and implausible nonsense Magic paint! Whatever next? I don't care - I'm going off to consult with the fairies in the garden ....... HiFiSubjectivist ? |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2018 12:44:36 GMT
Not fairies in the garden at all..
it's my view that the HiFi design rulebooks were written decades ago and what we're seeing today in the gear is the theories which couldn't be realised at the time being brought to fruition today due to massive advances in materials' science. Speakers have hugely benefitted from new advanced materials research and as I discussed in another thread, the better and more capable and linear transistors now available have taken solid state amp design to new heights in some quarters, aspects like Class A really being aimed at die-hards when it doesn't seem necessary in the real world for example - I'm obviously not an engineer, so Colin W for example may well wish to dispute my statement here.
It seems 'acoustic paint treatments' are nothing new in pro circles, but I suspect these things are done in conjunction with other things as a holistic solution, measurements being taken to ensure these treatments aren't over or under-done. We don't need to turn our listening/living rooms into a studio control room ffs, and in the past, it was often enough to furnish the room nicely so the listener 'felt' good living in it (psycho-acoustics no doubt). Maybe it's this desire to 'feel comfortable' that these add-on companies prey on and I'm sorry, Synergistic Research do come across *to me* as predators for gullible top end enthusiasts' money.
Apologies for the rant. I can't type fast enough to put these points properly and have been around far too long in this industry to be taken in by such stuff without a huge dollop of initial scepticism. I was all but stung/taken in/brainwashed in the 1980's Linn/Naim-rules era, was very friendly with Jimmy Hughes when the Peter Belt phenomena took hold in his life (he could show sonic 'differences' in his home on my regular visits there and listening room that I could never replicate in my own home and I ended up getting a better sound than he in my big-ATC days with none of this 'stuff' except cable ferrites on the important mains leads) and came out hopefully a bit wiser if rather cynical...
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