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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 2, 2015 12:06:10 GMT
Ah. there was me thinking the loaner would be better
Be interested to know age and use
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Post by MartinT on Oct 3, 2015 11:30:58 GMT
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 3, 2015 17:33:25 GMT
Can't help thinking snake oil or similar Next week I can be proved wrong just for once  |
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Post by Tim on Oct 3, 2015 17:47:01 GMT
They look like they are sat on some Harbeth's Martin?
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Post by MartinT on Oct 3, 2015 17:56:49 GMT
Now that you mention it, Tim, they do!
Mike: since they are additional to the speaker's own crossover, a bit like a Zobel network, they are not snake oil. However, I would think that their effect is going to vary with different systems. In mine, the 501s were good, it's too early to hear what the 901s will be like.
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Barry
Rank: Trio
Posts: 195 
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Post by Barry on Oct 3, 2015 18:22:59 GMT
Suspect they are nothing more than a simple Zobel network, probably consisting of a 1uF oil-filled paper capacitor in series with a 10 or 15Ohm 5W resistor.
All that blurb about Fleming's left hand rule and speakers being generators of back-EMF, whilst true, has been known about for ages. To damp out the back-EMF all one needs is for the driving power amplifier to have a very low output impedance, and for the speaker cables to have very low loop resistance. A good reason to use monoblock amplifiers placed directly behind each speaker, so minimising the length of the speaker cable
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 17:49:52 GMT
Evening Barry Your observation is spot on Fleming's rule has been around for close to half a century now (late sixty's / early seventies I believe) so indeed nothing new in terms of acceptance of back electromotive force being a genuine factor in how an amplifier 'views' a dynamic speaker whilst driving it (under load conditions). Some amplifiers are significantly less stressed while driving certain speakers than others, whilst this may not be a direct result of power output /current delivery against a fairly easy load speaker or more difficult load. Impedance matching plays a part. Over the years I have witnessed many systems that on paper would have you running for the door! Yet when you are actually listening to them they deliver a great engaging sound very little surprises me these days, except perhaps bastardized valve amps to give that Phil Specter Naimiefied wall of sound that could pile drive an inner ear canal through a wall at the speed of sound in the same way a 45 Magnum slug can penetrate a small block Chevvy. But who would want that? PMC owners do not answer  That said, Martin amplifier has a "vanishingly low output impedance" according to Hifi News, Paul Miller measured Output impedance @(20HZ-20kHz) of 0.004-0.012 0hm Which would indicate to have a pretty high tolerance for most loudspeakers, whilst his speaker cable has a very low inductance and capacitance, after all you really would not want to put another ' battery' in the way of your signal pathway? Metaphorically speaking. So it would seem that Martin's set up fly's in the face of convention or the Vampire Poo that cements the fabric of life works a little harder down the M3 All joking aside Barry aftermarket Zobel networks have been around almost as long has Fleming's rule, and most competent individuals with a soldering iron and copy of Penguin guide to electronics can build one. Some dexy board bit of soldering, calculation of values, raid the RS catolgue some speaker terminals and hey; all done. The effectiveness of these devices lie in the implementation of their design, pure and simple. We have tried these devices on many combinations of speaker / amplifiers and it has always generated a repeatable effect, whether the individual likes the effect is down to that individual and no one else. Impedance matching I would agree an important factor in assembling a quality system and is often over looked |
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Post by MartinT on Oct 5, 2015 21:08:16 GMT
In the final component of my CD replay chain to get the Coherent treatment, I've just put a 4D power cable between my Pass preamp and regenerator. This has had as big if not bigger impact as the 5D to my Ayre player. The improvement in reality (no normal terminology suffices to describe the effect) has been startling.
The overall effect has been to differentiate between the sound of recordings to a greater degree. Rather than everything coalescing into an equally beautiful sound, the opposite has been the case: each disc has diverged into more of its own sound, each recording bringing its own entirely different acoustic space. The strands of the mix are more obvious, everything laid bare. Smooth recordings are smoother, edgy recordings are more edgy. Each sounds more surprisingly different from others, no two the same. There is more of the performance than before, more character brought forward.
I need to listen to a lot more music now to try to get a better handle on what's going on. More burn-in and more listening without any further changes for a while.
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2015 6:29:06 GMT
It has been a busy time of change Martin I am really looking forward to hearing how it all sounds now
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 6, 2015 7:25:38 GMT
I went for a 6D to drive the Isis CD player and my Pass Pre Amp
Dare I bring one or two down on Saturday ?
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Post by MartinT on Oct 6, 2015 7:42:57 GMT
It certainly sounds different, John. Less edgy, more presence, soundstage and detail.
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 6, 2015 10:40:31 GMT
I would certainly be interested in the changes wrought to your system in the last 3 (4?) years since I heard it.
Back then it majored on IMPACT and SLAM, to the detriment, imo, of low level delicacy and subtle dynamic nuance. Some recordings sounded truly awesome, while others simply passed it by. ... I'm sure that's the same for pretty much all systems!
From your description of recent changes, it may well now be more of an all-rounder and more to my personal preference.
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Post by MartinT on Oct 6, 2015 11:21:05 GMT
From your description of recent changes, it may well now be more of an all-rounder and more to my personal preference. I suspect that it has taken a firm step towards your preferences, Jerry, without losing the impact and slam. Classical presentation is more pleasing in the area of vivid soundstage and imaging, in the separation of choral voices and in the texture of instruments. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 6, 2015 12:11:17 GMT
Think it has gone in my direction too then
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Post by MartinT on Oct 7, 2015 18:35:43 GMT
In the final component of my CD replay chain to get the Coherent treatment, I've just put a 4D power cable between my Pass preamp and regenerator. This has had as big if not bigger impact as the 5D to my Ayre player. The improvement in reality (no normal terminology suffices to describe the effect) has been startling. ...and then I stupidly tried a 5D running the Pass. Bugger. So the 4D is going back and a 5D will be on its way to me. I can see that I have standardised on 6D for the power items and 5D for the source components. Can't afford one for the VIDA yet but I can see that it'll be next. |
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Post by BilliumB on Oct 7, 2015 18:40:34 GMT
Hi Martin
I was wondering what proportion of the cost of your system cables now account for? How do you decide where to spend the money to get the best sound?
Cheers. Bill
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Post by MartinT on Oct 7, 2015 20:39:23 GMT
Hi Bill, I don't think the overall proportion of cost has changed, it's my choices and system matching that have evolved. I would say that my speaker and interconnect cables are considerably less costly than those I had once upon a time, but the power cables are more costly. This goes hand in hand with my findings that power cables make more of a different sound quality-wise.
The answer to your question is around 20%.
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 8, 2015 9:28:10 GMT
That's a figure I should look at.
Used to be
All the kit v's One Mana 4 shelf
That has changed enormously
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Post by MartinT on Oct 10, 2015 10:14:08 GMT
Tony dropped in the 5D power cable, so I now have 5Ds on the Pass and Ayre. It's all sounding very good.
Mike and John are coming over later for a session.
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Post by John on Oct 10, 2015 20:34:44 GMT
What a fantastic afternoon
Martin system has gone through a major upgrade in sound since I last heard it. All that work Martin has put into the system has paid off both in digital and analogue. We had a fascinating time playing with supports more about that after Brian reports back from their session.
Really interesting having Martin Ayre against Bug Head. The Ayre had more body. detail and air! but we not talking a huge margin. The Raspberry Pi was very good not quite in the same class as Bug Head or the Ayre but a great way to get into very good sounds without spending a huge amount of money. For me the big surprise was how such huge speakers now disappear in his room. The scale, dynamics and detail without a hint of fatigue was breathtaking. For me there is a maturity in the system with everything sounding more coherent.
Great to meet Mike.
Everyone agreed biggest issue with BH is navigating it
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