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Post by John on Aug 7, 2016 17:09:17 GMT
Yes DSP makes a big difference in the bass
I think you might be pleasantly surprised what my bass drivers can do. Lots of speed and impact without bloom.
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Post by steveeb on Aug 8, 2016 12:20:48 GMT
I quite like a little subtle subwoofery addition. A REL Strata 3 and I'd like to try a stereo sub pair sometime. Set up as per the REL instruction I experience an annoying thud in my room so use it in a way that doesn't actually produce the deepest or loudest bass possible, but I appreciate the effect it has on the projection and interaction with the room, giving more body to the sound and especially adding perceived weight to the higher frequencies. Also helps to create a soundfield where the main speakers disappear as sources.
Unless a recording has been monitored with a sub, sounds that were not intended to be there can be uncovered and do nothing positive for the listening experience.
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Post by Clive on Aug 8, 2016 12:46:04 GMT
Unless a recording has been monitored with a sub, sounds that were not intended to be there can be uncovered and do nothing positive for the listening experience. You could however substitute full range speakers for subwoofer and still have the same issue. Unless you have a subwoofer setup for wham-bam theatre effects what's happening with your REL is that it's uncovering room resonances that are not revealed by less extended speakers. I find active bass with DSP works really well but this in my situation where my room is all but square with the ceiling height measuring half the wall length - a really bad combination! Peaks and dips can be up to 15db which is rather severe. By way of illustration here are dimensions and their primary resonant frequency (they the double and keep on going but halving amplitude each time) 8ft 70Hz 12ft 47Hz 15ft 37Hz A bit room mode reinfornacement at 47Hz can sound good and is sort of UK house sound that most of us grew up with. A lot a speakers will have much reduced output at 37Hz but fuller rangers and subwoofers won't so this is where the problem often starts to kick in. |
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Post by steveeb on Aug 8, 2016 13:41:50 GMT
Yes, I suppose what I consider recording 'faults' are being exaggerated. Two examples are studio acoustic guitar performances where the stage or a dias is amplifying a boom from the heel tapping of the player, and not in a good way. The recording is otherwise superb so I assume the engineer would hate the idea that this was on there at all.
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Post by Clive on Aug 8, 2016 13:45:02 GMT
Yes, I suppose what I consider recording 'faults' are being exaggerated. Two examples are studio acoustic guitar performances where the stage or a dias is amplifying a boom from the heel tapping of the player, and not in a good way. The recording is otherwise superb so I assume the engineer would hate the idea that this was on there at all. Yes I agree, a good example of that which many will be familiar with is Clapton Unplugged. Before I used DSP I had a crazy level of foot tapping in my room. |
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Coops
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Post by Coops on Aug 8, 2016 14:26:34 GMT
If you acoustically measure your room, you will instantly see the cancellations and reinforcements , that cause the 'thumps' bass , reduce that peak and much better bass.
Keith
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 16:34:00 GMT
Yes basic room acoustics at play, I use a full RTA suite, however there a many quality on the market under £200 that will allow most people to measure their own listening space and plot out room modes, first reflections and secondary wave fronts.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 8, 2016 18:39:37 GMT
Yes I agree, a good example of that which many will be familiar with is Clapton Unplugged. Before I used DSP I had a crazy level of foot tapping in my room. Yes, I know it well and the thumps can be quite hefty. |
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Post by speedysteve on Aug 10, 2016 8:35:40 GMT
Yes DSP makes a big difference in the bass I think you might be pleasantly surprised what my bass drivers can do. Lots of speed and impact without bloom. No doubt, you are not using horns elsewhere so would work fine... |
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Post by John on Aug 10, 2016 18:53:42 GMT
Yes agree works well for my set up
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Post by ChrisB on Aug 10, 2016 19:20:07 GMT
OK, so most folks agree that subwoofers can have a place in a system.
Next question then: Are passive subs a waste of time?
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Post by John on Aug 11, 2016 4:23:23 GMT
For me active with DSP is the way to go. But I once heard a passive OB approach that sounded very good indeed
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2016 6:30:49 GMT
All the good subs I've ever heard are active as you get the frequency and gain controls required to properly match it to the main speakers. The built-in amp ensures that your main amp isn't strained by the sub's presence as it won't see it as a load.
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Coops
Rank: Soloist
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Post by Coops on Aug 11, 2016 8:43:59 GMT
Yes but for perfect integration you need to stop the main loudspeaker playing altogether , you choose the frequency, slope,order and correct phase , then with the new sub integrated you need to acoustically measure your room and correct any issues that have arisen.
Keith
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2016 14:48:07 GMT
Except that REL, for instance, have always advocated not filtering the main speakers at all, simply integrating the sub. In order to filter the main speakers you need to introduce a filter at line level, which degrades your precious main signal. I'd agree with that.
After all, you are trying to match the natural slope-off of the main speakers so they are self-filtering, if you see what I mean.
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Coops
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Post by Coops on Aug 11, 2016 15:29:14 GMT
Technology has rather moved on, you can use a small processor with a piece of custom software, you measure your speakers determine where they start to roll off, place high pass filter there ,ask the sub to play only below that frequency ,choose the order ,correct phase then download that file to the processor which just sits as a black box within your system,
Result perfectly integrated sub, I first heard this with a pair of Genelec digital monitors ,their software detected subs on system and then perfectly integrated them, the Grimm LS1's are the same, the processors are inexpensive and will bring a huge improvement to your system.
Keith
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 15:33:30 GMT
Yes but for perfect integration you need to stop the main loudspeaker playing altogether , you choose the frequency, slope,order and correct phase , then with the new sub integrated you need to acoustically measure your room and correct any issues that have arisen. Keith Indeed the Peter Lyndorf adopted method of using at least two pairs of high efficiency (95dB+) 10"+ drivers crossed from anywhere below 250Hz and leaving the mid and upper frequencies to a dedicated quality two way speaker to take care of the rest of sound spectrum. Coupled with a highly flexible DSP engine did produce some very creditable results, virtual elimination of room all interaction (if you spent the time on a quality set up), superb imaging and spacial separation. However it could also sound very contrived and mechanical and had no musical soul or engagement what so ever. They key is to take your time and investigate all aspects of room / speaker interface, though do remember they more pieces in the puzzle the more variables need to be accounted for. Now if some clever 12 Y.O. Chinese wonder kid could design a constant adaptive real time sound reproductive system, then they would be a lot of unhappy dealers. However as yet I feel the technology to physically manipulate music in real time to suit, room, listening style, volume and budget may be a wee while off yet. Imagine coming home and speaking to the AI running your house, "Clapton, behind the mask, uber rez, Albert hall mode, volume level bonkers and I'll take a chilled alcoholic beverage in the drawing room" see you in 2575 folks.............. |
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Post by MartinT on Aug 12, 2016 5:23:00 GMT
I have no doubt in my mind that passive room treatment comes first, before worrying about DSP correction, etc.
Also - if you are playing an analogue source such as vinyl why would you want to introduce a digital process into the chain?
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Coops
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Post by Coops on Aug 12, 2016 8:15:22 GMT
It is very difficult for passive acoustic treatment to deal with very low bass, unless you build a room within a room with six feet of rock wool in every direction, a little EQ can remove a resonant peak caused by a standing wave and really improve the sound quality in your room.
Everyone should acoustically measure their listening room,the results are always interesting and they spotlight issues which you can then treat.
Keith
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Post by MartinT on Aug 12, 2016 13:08:46 GMT
I agree, I've made many plots over the years and used them as the basis for room and speaker tuning. With my Ushers, I've found that port stuffing has made a big impact on bass boom and room loading, reducing them considerably.
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