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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:30:10 GMT
This has been discussed elsewhere, but I would appreciate peoples opinions here. I am currently Bi-Amping my Cyrus CLS70 speakers with an Arcam Alpha 8 and an 8P. Opinions are mixed about the benefit of Bi-Amping speakers, and I am looking to upgrade my amplification. The speakers are not the easiest load to drive at around 87db.
My current plan is to give them a boost with a cheap Alpha 10P in a single amplifier configuration (using the 8R as a pre) and then pop something like a Croft 25R pre into the system, and add a power amp later. However, the twin volume control concerns me slightly. How practical are they?
So, is it worth the expense to Bi-Amp speakers or is one more powerful amp a better proposition? Which camp do you sit in?
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Post by John on Jun 30, 2014 19:35:13 GMT
One of the biggest issues with speakers is the jumper leads. Using a good amp power and good cable between terminals I used to just use good quality earth wire worked well for me But like all things audio their will be different views
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:40:11 GMT
I looked at making up some jumper leads, but I figured a good lump of copper would do, so I think I will try some Cardas copper jumper plates. My main issue is that I currently find my system a little bit "shouty" when I wind the wick up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:44:09 GMT
I suspect there may not be a simple answer to this.
It depends.
I built a pair of speakers for my nephew a while ago. We tried both ways. Standard crossover with Quad 405 amp first and then bi-amped with a 306 driving the treble and the 405 bass. We then swapped the amps. I preferred the single amp and he preferred the bi-amping - whichever way round. He still uses them and has just replaced the crossovers after 15 years and changed the 405 to 50Es.
So I suspect that only you can tell. As ever though, finding out might take both time and money.
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Post by John on Jun 30, 2014 19:49:23 GMT
Their are lots of reasons why you might be getting a wonky sound sorry could not help myself I do not know your speakers Room acoustics could be a issue Good clean power another its a long list and better served by someone who knows your system better
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Post by pinkie on Jun 30, 2014 19:49:46 GMT
You know my views on this - but lets share them with those who don't. Bigger power amp must make sense, and bi-amping is a complete waste of time. Jumpers - why would they be any different for that little bit of power amp to speaker connection than the cables travelling the big journey. I leave the metal plates on the Ventricals. (Not an issue on the Lowthers ) The 10P with a broken fascia , and loose headphone socket joint I am flogging you cheap cos you insisted is not the most inspiring amp I have heard, but it is powerful and competent, even effortless and the amp you say you originally auditioned the speakers with. Since you auditioned the speakers through a 10P not bi-amped and liked them enough to buy them, and now have misgivings about them being shouty, the obvious place to start would seem to be to hook them up to a 10P and see if that fixes it. If not, we can start looking elsewhere. There - that's brought the rest of the boys and girls up to speed with our private discussion. The pip 2 is going to blow your socks off, but unfortunately I can't help you there.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 30, 2014 19:50:55 GMT
I was converted to single wiring back when I had JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers. Jacques Mahul used to speak passionately about using single wiring and jumpers made of the same cable and I have done so ever since.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:55:19 GMT
What about a set of Ventricles? (What is the correct spelling by the way? Google suggest as I have typed it, but you should know!) I may have another cheap amp to play with as well by the time you get here...
I also think that "room treatment" will play a major part in this as well, and minor steps have been taken here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 20:00:08 GMT
What about a set of Ventricles? (What is the correct spelling by the way? Google suggest as I have typed it, but you should know!) I may have another cheap amp to play with as well by the time you get here... I also think that "room treatment" will play a major part in this as well, and minor steps have been taken here. Its spelt 'testicles' I understand.
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Post by ChrisB on Jun 30, 2014 20:04:07 GMT
If you're going to use single wiring, then Martin's advice is good - use a short piece of your normal speaker cable (or just strip a little insulation off each wire at the point where that one wire can go through the first post and plug into the other post). I believe the question was about bi-amping rather than bi-wiring though. Depending on your available amps and/or funds, I'd suggest there's a point up to which you'll probably be better off buying a better single amp than two lesser amps. I'd also diplomatically suggest than any amps made by Arcam are possibly not in the region of that point. Richard's experience of bi-amping is obviously somewhat different to mine as I have used this method of amplification for many years with great success. The thing with bi-amping is that two poor amps won't make a good one, but two good ones can help make a great amp/speaker combination.
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Post by pinkie on Jun 30, 2014 20:10:55 GMT
What about a set of Ventricles? (What is the correct spelling by the way? Google suggest as I have typed it, but you should know!) I may have another cheap amp to play with as well by the time you get here... I also think that "room treatment" will play a major part in this as well, and minor steps have been taken here. Its spelt 'testicles' I understand. "Bollocks" usually
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Post by pinkie on Jun 30, 2014 20:20:38 GMT
Sue will have a complete fit (with some justification) if I suggest putting the Ventricals (blame Neil) in the boot. They do come up from time to time (I think Arthur has a pair of "Super Ventricals" in his shed somewhere, but he always asks silly money for his precious archive material), but I think you are running before you can walk. I thought you liked those speakers of yours, which I have not yet heard. I don't think you have yet heard ESL's, so me saying the Ventricals sound very similar is not a lot of help. Lets see whether the arcam gets you back to the experience which caused you to part with the cash for them in the first place. If it doesn't, lets have a look if there is anything obvious about the room that we could tweak. Given I know your TT and arm are competent enough for this purpose, and we will have the Pip there, and much as I don't love it that much the 10P is more than adequate for this purpose, if you are still not happy, then you need to look at speakers again. A drive north to Gordons, if he is gent enough to invite you, would give you an idea what the ESL's are like. If they float your boat, and your missus puts her foot down about having a pair of 1950's convector radiators in the room, I can look out for a pair of Ventricals for you over here (it may be that Andrew at Doug Brady still has a pair) But one step at a time
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Post by MartinT on Jun 30, 2014 20:21:59 GMT
I believe the question was about bi-amping rather than bi-wiring though. Oops, quite right. I will support your statement that one good amp beats two lesser ones, having tried that route.
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Post by pinkie on Jun 30, 2014 20:23:47 GMT
I was converted to single wiring back when I had JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers. Jacques Mahul used to speak passionately about using single wiring and jumpers made of the same cable and I have done so ever since. +1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 20:52:45 GMT
Sue will have a complete fit (with some justification) if I suggest putting the Ventricals (blame Neil) in the boot. They do come up from time to time (I think Arthur has a pair of "Super Ventricals" in his shed somewhere, but he always asks silly money for his precious archive material), but I think you are running before you can walk. I thought you liked those speakers of yours, which I have not yet heard. I don't think you have yet heard ESL's, so me saying the Ventricals sound very similar is not a lot of help. Lets see whether the arcam gets you back to the experience which caused you to part with the cash for them in the first place. If it doesn't, lets have a look if there is anything obvious about the room that we could tweak. Given I know your TT and arm are competent enough for this purpose, and we will have the Pip there, and much as I don't love it that much the 10P is more than adequate for this purpose, if you are still not happy, then you need to look at speakers again. A drive north to Gordons, if he is gent enough to invite you, would give you an idea what the ESL's are like. If they float your boat, and your missus puts her foot down about having a pair of 1950's convector radiators in the room, I can look out for a pair of Ventricals for you over here (it may be that Andrew at Doug Brady still has a pair) But one step at a time I'm just trying to cover all the bases. You could look at it as moving your HiFi to the south of France slowly.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jun 30, 2014 21:37:59 GMT
Bi-amping would be well worth it if you went active IMHO. A mini DSP can be bought for not a lot, I use one and find it considerably better than the Behringer I was using previously. The DSP is easy to set up with the software you can buy with the unit. Only caveat is you need the crossover details for your speakers.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 1, 2014 5:46:48 GMT
Bi- or tri-amping is essential if you go active crossover, otherwise it wouldn't work.
My problem with DSP is you are putting all your precious analogue signal through an ADC, then digital processing, then a DAC. The effect to my ears is a dead sound, no matter what the benefits of room correction. Of course, if you are digital only, then you suffer fewer losses but I still don't like it.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 1, 2014 6:04:18 GMT
Active is definitely a whole new ball game, with potential great benefits. I've never tried the DSP idea - in my day it was a question of getting a techie who knew what they were doing to design the crossover. We played with active LS35a's using MYST amps at PT in the early 80's. Bi-amping, I should expand on my earlier comments to Kevin, because I respect Chris's experience, and he appears to have different experiences. I have tried it a bit, and never found it to be worth the effort. That applies to all my main buddies in HiFi too (including a couple of very well respected Loudspeaker designers). Kevin's attention was drawn by others at Wigwam to some technical explanations of why it should have no effect. I think however, rather than cast it into the pit, I rather intended to say "fix the big problems first - tinker afterwards". Bi-amping could have a minor effect (as well as others perhaps) as bi-wiring could Bi - wiring. As Martin T pointed out in his reply to wobbly about Van Damme - fatter cable will handle bigger currents and longer runs better. Having 2 cables instead of one, apart from "dedicating" them to a driver, gives you de facto a fatter cable. In some situations this is obviously going to have an effect. Ditto for bi-amping where there are 2 cables equals a fatter cable, which happen to be hooked to some extra amps. I return to "fix the big stuff first - tinker afterwards". Kevin and I have got to cyber-know each other recently kicked off by a Technics mod. I assume I made some sense somewhere, and have picked up a bit of credibility. There were in fact at least 2 mods, and a refinement on a mod. I acknowledged all 3 mods could have an effect, but that some would be much more earth-shattering than others. I think some of the other advice he heard sought to make every tiny change "cosmic" and you get sort of "snow -blinded" by it My Talk 3 speaker cable made an important difference in my system. As did changing the cartidge header load on the Technics moving coil. But tiny invisible differences compared with swapping the Lowthers for the Ventricals, or discovering the glorious beauty of the xx20ii cartridge, or even moving the Lowthers against a wall, instead of having them in the middle of a room. It helps to "scale" the significance of differences. And it helps to fix the big things before getting to anal about the fine tuning refinements. There is a danger of emulating the famous Oozlem bird, and disappearing up ones own arse for ever chasing micro tweaks and never enjoying music. Particularly if you havent first sorted the big picture. Kevin is unhappy with speakers he chose and liked. The main things to have changed from then to now are the room and the amp. Let's look there first
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jul 1, 2014 6:47:20 GMT
Bi- or tri-amping is essential if you go active crossover, otherwise it wouldn't work. My problem with DSP is you are putting all your precious analogue signal through an ADC, then digital processing, then a DAC. The effect to my ears is a dead sound, no matter what the benefits of room correction. Of course, if you are digital only, then you suffer fewer losses but I still don't like it. Well yeah, that was kind of a given. :-) Must say though, the sound I have is anything but dead. I think the benefits of going active far outweigh the downsides. My system is far from typical though.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jul 1, 2014 6:48:15 GMT
BTW, not using any room correction, just as a crossover.
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