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Post by stanleyb on Jun 23, 2015 12:50:05 GMT
I'm pleased to announce that I cannot hear any difference playing music from CD in real time and the same album in ripped form via one of my Squeezebox Touch players. Both devices are connected to my DAC, and the track almost synchronised between players. A switch between players (literally a flick of a switch) and any change in sound (maybe there is no change ) is too small for my earholes to detect. Lucky you. My Touch beats the living daylight out of the DVD player that I use to play CD.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 23, 2015 16:24:18 GMT
You can't hear a difference! But why? They're both hooked up to different inputs of the same DAC. If they're delivering the same bits to the DAC then there shouldn't in theory be any difference in sound quality from the different sources. In practise that's exactly what I hear - no difference in sound quality. It justifies my switching to file based audio all those years ago
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 23, 2015 16:30:47 GMT
Lucky you. My Touch beats the living daylight out of the DVD player that I use to play CD. It might be that the Touch has a properly specced SPDIF and the DVD player doesn't. I'm assuming that you're hooking them up to one of your DACs. If it's the analogue outs that you're comparing then I'm not in the slightest bit surprised.
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Post by aurender on Jun 25, 2015 10:07:00 GMT
Sorry, if only the argument was that simple as the oft quoted bits are bits!
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Post by MartinT on Jun 25, 2015 10:35:39 GMT
I agree, 'bit-perfect' is only half the story.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 25, 2015 11:47:14 GMT
You can disagree all you want, but the only important bit from my experiment is this, and I quote myself - "In practise that's exactly what I hear - no difference in sound quality".
Does anyone have the audacity to try and tell me what I hear?
In my setup I can hear no difference in sound between using a Squeezebox Touch and a Panasonic BDP connected to the same DAC and flicking between the players playing the same material and in as near synchronisation as I can be bothered to achieve. That bit is indisputable in my experience, and I'm not in the slightest bit interested at this point in even having a discussion, let alone argument about it.
All I have said is that with the equipment at my disposal etc, etc, etc.....
And I'm more than happy about the situation, because I use the Squeezebox as my major source, and it doesn't sound any better and it doesn't sound any worse than playing CDs on my BDP. I'm not saying it's the best sounding rig, but I have heard worse, and some of that worse sounding stuff costs a lot more than the lowly gear I have here. I heard some gear at last years Cranage Hall Show that had phenomenal resolution capabilities, TAD was the brand IIRC, and the resolution was very impressive. Couldn't play a tune to save its life.
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Post by SteveC on Jun 25, 2015 12:13:43 GMT
Being a newcomer to the world of computer audio, I decided to buy any online hi-rez downloads encoded as AAIF, on the basis that, as uncompressed files, I could always convert them to a lossless format such as FLAC at a later stage, using the dbPoweramp software.
My Melco Digital Music Library, sits as a single box solution, connected by an ethernet cable to my home network and playback via a USB cable to the dCS Vivaldi DAC.
I have found it a simple process, to rip my CD's, using my Windows PC, which "sees' the Melco shared folder as just another HD connected to the network. My policy, so far, has been to rip most files as AAIF (the Melco has 4TB of onboard HD storage and a USB expansion port to simply add more space as necessary.
The only time I have used FLAC are with any compilation albums.
When I get more time, I will sit down and carefully compare the same album, ripped as AAIF and FLAC, to see if I can detect any difference.
I am extremely happy with the Melco N1A as my system solution to adding a computer file source component and recommend it's sound quality highly (it looks much better in black as well)!
The hi-rez downloads I have purchased so far from HD Tracks, have included a 6 album set of Eagles albums, Led Zeppellin (Jimmy Page remasters) II & IV, The Doors and a 352.8/24 Bit version of that old audiophile warhorse, 'Cantata Domino' which sounds amazing (I have had the original LP since the 70's).
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Post by MartinT on Jun 25, 2015 12:27:18 GMT
Chris, of course I wasn't trying to tell you what you can hear. What I was saying is that the data being bit-perfect does not guarantee perfect sound quality. A lot of the differences we hear in digital replay are about the timing, jitter, noise etc. even if the data is correct.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 25, 2015 12:53:50 GMT
I didn't for one second think you were trying to tell me what I hear, Martin. And I agree that there's a lot more involved in the replay chain than just the material being bit perfect, and the stream being bit perfect. My thought on the TAD demo was that the sounds the system made were incredible. The only problem was that the sound was boring to listen to, and it didn't play music in a way that moved me. Someone involved in the R&D process had allowed themself to become blinkered in their pursuit of perfection, and in doing so forgot that the whole idea of it all was to make music to move people. I know that the music material being played was not the issue, as I have copies of the self same material. So my impression of the gear is "makes nice noises but cannot play music". I regard myself as fortunate in the respect that my system plays music in a way that moves me, and I'm not chasing a magic bullet. I'm far more interested in listening to music than changing the system. Changes occur less quickly than continental drift around here. I'm also fortunate to live just down the road from a certain speaker building gentleman, and quite regularly get to hear speakers in development. His latest Norje build sounds exceptional
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Post by MartinT on Jun 25, 2015 16:36:43 GMT
That's interesting. Were these TonyC's TADs? I must say, in the right environment, I've heard them sound superlative and very much music making speakers.
It just goes to show: different ears, location, partnering equipment etc.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 25, 2015 17:18:57 GMT
Here's a picture of the setup that impressed me so much ... Looks nice, doesn't it?
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Post by MartinT on Jun 25, 2015 17:37:21 GMT
Ah yes, Tony's indeed. I know the speakers well. I heard my Ayre SACD player through them the other day, superb music making.
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Post by John on Jun 25, 2015 17:40:16 GMT
I heard the TADs a few times. They certainly not for everyone as they give lots of resolution. I not heard them at a show but in Tony C system and they were certainly creating music. A very different presentation to the Frugual 3s you have Chris but love how the Frugel sounds too (they have to be best value speaker around).
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Post by MartinT on Jun 25, 2015 17:43:46 GMT
The Frugels are very nice speakers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 17:46:03 GMT
Evening Strat All with all things in this world, one man's meat is another man's poison and perception of sound that works for the individual. If we all liked the same style and production of sound, I suspect they would be a lot of audio sheep in the world and not just those residing in Wiltshire Why not look at this in more detail, you feel that you were lacking an involvement / engaging manner to music Strat, could you go into detail for us and describe what you feel constitutes a musical and involving sound.
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Post by aurender on Jun 25, 2015 19:20:04 GMT
You can't hear a difference! But why? They're both hooked up to different inputs of the same DAC. If they're delivering the same bits to the DAC then there shouldn't in theory be any difference in sound quality from the different sources. In practise that's exactly what I hear - no difference in sound quality. It justifies my switching to file based audio all those years ago Sorry, that's the bit I disagreed with. No desire to argue but your statement on bits going to the DAC is neither accurate or relevant. nobody on here is arguing about what you subjectively feel about the sound you hear: why would we want to do that? It's only when you rationalise that with "bits is bits" that I think you do a disservice to the experiment.
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Post by Greg on Jun 25, 2015 21:41:42 GMT
Well, I've read this whole thread because it is relevant to me and my current conversion to streamed music. Much of what has been said has gone over my head, but have to say that in my simple experience, listening to streamed Flac files sounds far better than listening to a CD through a CDP. The lack of colouration seems to me to be the critical aspect. IMHO, a CDP based system introduces its own colouration to the sound. A file based flac system does not. Simples! (IMHO)
Going back to the beginning of this thread, and again, embrassing my niaivity, I read several references to FBA. I have no idea what this means. Someone, please enlighten me.
I did a Google, but came up with Fulfilment through Amazon, Freshwater Biological Association, Fellowship of British Academy, Fixed Block Architecture, Free Buddhist Audio and Finance & Business Affairs. Please, someone, put me out of my ignorant pain!
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Post by ChrisB on Jun 25, 2015 21:43:58 GMT
FBA - File based audio I think it's a crapronym or something
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Post by Dave on Jun 25, 2015 22:00:03 GMT
Free Buddhist Audio - Resurrecting those old hits you know so well...
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Post by Greg on Jun 25, 2015 22:00:45 GMT
Thanks Chris, much understandingly obliged.
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