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Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2015 11:56:59 GMT
It's a personal thing I reckon. For example, my decision to give up on vinyl was for health reasons. Sounds weird I know, but I have a serous and debilitating back issue therfore setting up TT's became a very painful chore. Even the pre-play prep was a problem (not to mention having to get up half way through an album to flip and rinse), so as a result I'd find that the ensuing pain would totally ruin my musical enjoyment of said album. I also identify with André's problem as I have experienced the same issue. The reason why 12" singles generally sound better than LP's is due to there being more space between the grooves thus eliminating instances of groove crosstalk which plague many a 33rpm album, where by necessity the grooves nestle closer together in order to allow an album of a reasonable length to exist on the record. It's a simple matter of available real estate, the more musical information there is on an album, the closer the grooves need to be cut to contain it. There is a physical limit of course. More often than not a 12" single contains one or two tracks per side which allows the engineer to produce a more dynamic cut on 12" 45's , as I understand it. A good example of groove crosstalk can be found at the beginning of original CBS pressings of Jeff Waynes' War Of The Worlds, where one can hear repeating ghost instances of the first three chords which gradually rise in volume preceding the actual event. The final reason why I've chosen to go down the FBA path is that to my ears it produces much better SQ in my system, and that's what counts in the end...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 14:47:46 GMT
One noticeable thing with vinyl playback is that the better the equipment and setup, the more enjoyable, noise-free and click/pop-free the experience becomes. I am rarely aware that I'm playing vinyl as opposed to optical these days and that is the way it should be. Greater dynamic range equals suppressed noise floor and much faster recovery from clicks and pops, eliminating their nuisance value. Of course, a good clean non-worn stylus and RCM help greatly. Like i said Martin i spend thousands on some of the best TT/Cartridges the LP's are the issue everytime, im never happy. You cannot get blood out of a stone, if the high quality sound is not there within the pressing in the first place, no matter how much you spend on gear you cannot get what you want other than put up with it. Listern to a CD or a new digital sourced vinyl pressing of the same LP's it is apparent that the old Analogue pressing are of medicore SQ in comparison {not all but in many cases for me}.. But as for 12" singles it is the reverse i cannot get a CD, the high quality playback equipment will bring out the sound from the high quality 12" single because it is there. So the option for me is for albums, a CD converted into lossless, for my 12" singles convert them into lossless from the vinyl source...
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Post by ChrisB on Jun 19, 2015 17:27:00 GMT
Hi Dave, .....so it's got nothing to to with a better signal to noise ratio due to the higher speed?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 18:21:38 GMT
Over the week ive been seriously listerning to my File based system & done an A/B comparison between the FLAC files & my Vinyl LP's. There is absolutely no competition. The files win. However they do not win where my 12" singles are concerned. I have thousands of these & still collect them & pretty much the reason i still have a turntable. The Files even sound better than my CD player.. So really the only LP's i have left are pretty much history, basically resigned to the ornaments section {Keeps for old time sake}. Who would have thought eh Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is what you claim physically possible? After all; F.L.A.C. files have to have been created originally from a source!
Maybe it is personal taste rather than 'better'?
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Post by MartinT on Jun 19, 2015 18:40:52 GMT
I think Andr'e is downloading the FLAC files rather than ripping them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 18:58:43 GMT
Ripped but there is a certain difference between the CD & the File. I put it down to the CDP because i deffo hear a difference for the better imho.. i must remember to keep saying IMHO
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jun 19, 2015 19:11:43 GMT
I won't be buying a cd player again. I keep a turntable for the older, nicer sounding vinyl. I tried some newer pressings with mixed results (usually pissed off sending them back). The charity shop finds are ok if you have an RCM imo. I listen to FLAC files mainly.
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Post by Tim on Jun 20, 2015 7:37:27 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is what you claim physically possible? After all; F.L.A.C. files have to have been created originally from a source!
Yes it is, it's well documented, repeatable and clearly audible if using a good DAC, good playback software such as JRiver or similar and a decent music server/player. Quite simple to understand too when you consider what a CD player has to do to extract digital data from a spinning CD and replay it, compared to a bit perfect digital file being played direct from RAM. If it didn't sound good, then I doubt so many 'audiophiles', no matter how reluctant they may be in accepting such a concept, are willing to switch over and eat a little humble pie. It does in most cases sound better pound for pound, the Pi is a no brainer cost wise, whether you will prefer it is personal choice. It's the future of music for the mainstream market, but a lot of die hard vinyl lovers have always had a hard time accepting it - best of both worlds is have a good TT and a FBA system, then you can enjoy most readily available music. The convenience of it is quite a draw too, especially if you have a very large CD collection. But who cares, if it's not for you then don't do it, just enjoy the music however you play it. But don't dismiss it based on age old personal held belief's, as you could be selling yourself short. But most certainly, don't dismiss it through a lack of understanding/experience or worst of all, plain stubbornness to accept a new concept.
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Post by brian2957 on Jun 20, 2015 7:47:41 GMT
Yup . Good post Tim .
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Post by aurender on Jun 20, 2015 9:05:07 GMT
Really interesting debate. I have no experience on 12" singles so can't comment.
I'm firmly in the digital front end camp having sold my own vinyl setup a while back (absolutely no regrets over that). Various friends with high end vinyl systems have insisted that I listen to their vinyl setups to see how great vinyl is. In every case, I've heard very good sound but nothing that encourages me to buy another turntable. Maybe my ears have grown used to listening to a digital front end as well as growing increasingly lazy with the great ease of selecting music with a well designed streaming interface.
I hear large differences in the sound from different digital devices. The Squeezebox Transporter is good, particularly when clock locked to the DCS up sampler/DAC. The Aurender s10 is much, much better even using asynchronous USB into the DCS clock.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 18:51:24 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is what you claim physically possible? After all; F.L.A.C. files have to have been created originally from a source!
Yes it is, it's well documented, repeatable and clearly audible if using a good DAC, good playback software such as JRiver or similar and a decent music server/player. Quite simple to understand too when you consider what a CD player has to do to extract digital data from a spinning CD and replay it, compared to a bit perfect digital file being played direct from RAM. If it didn't sound good, then I doubt so many 'audiophiles', no matter how reluctant they may be in accepting such a concept, are willing to switch over and eat a little humble pie. It does in most cases sound better pound for pound, the Pi is a no brainer cost wise, whether you will prefer it is personal choice. It's the future of music for the mainstream market, but a lot of die hard vinyl lovers have always had a hard time accepting it - best of both worlds is have a good TT and a FBA system, then you can enjoy most readily available music. The convenience of it is quite a draw too, especially if you have a very large CD collection. But who cares, if it's not for you then don't do it, just enjoy the music however you play it. But don't dismiss it based on age old personal held belief's, as you could be selling yourself short. But most certainly, don't dismiss it through a lack of understanding/experience or worst of all, plain stubbornness to accept a new concept. If i play a CD through my CDP it sounds good but im hearing what i associate with CD sound i usually hear regardless of what player i use. Playing back a rip into FLAC via the HRT all that is gone it's like i can listern all day like the very best analogue sounding.. I find myself listerning for hours on end glued to the headphones getting in trouble from the wife when im suppose to be decorating however if it were straight CD playback her decorating would be done by now..
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Post by ChrisB on Jun 20, 2015 19:11:12 GMT
I remember that you used to like CDs recorded onto r:r tape, Andre. You said at the time that you preferred them to the CD playback that you were getting. Is the sound you're getting now with FLACs and the HRT similar to that for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 8:54:51 GMT
I'm stuck here, I don't understand how a copy of something can sound superior to the original. I suspect that choice of turntable is the crucial point here. If you have an excellent turntable then the original can only be duplicated, not sound better surely?
I have also noted that F.L.A.C. files seem to have lost vinyl roar and surface noise, something that proves to me that F.L.A.C. is 'not' lossless!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 8:58:48 GMT
I remember that you used to like CDs recorded onto r:r tape, Andre. You said at the time that you preferred them to the CD playback that you were getting. That's it in a nutshell, preferred does not actually mean the same as better. I believe it is just down to taste rather than the 'copy' being better than the original. I prefer cassettes, but they are not better than records
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Post by stanleyb on Jun 21, 2015 9:29:22 GMT
I remember that you used to like CDs recorded onto r:r tape, Andre. You said at the time that you preferred them to the CD playback that you were getting. I prefer cassettes, but they are not better than recordsI would wish to challenge that statement. Cassette has no pops and clicks, a wider dynamic range, and if you got a good deck and metal tapes you couldn't tell the difference between CD and cassette playback.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jun 21, 2015 9:45:17 GMT
I'm stuck here, I don't understand how a copy of something can sound superior to the original. I suspect that choice of turntable is the crucial point here. If you have an excellent turntable then the original can only be duplicated, not sound better surely? I have also noted that F.L.A.C. files seem to have lost vinyl roar and surface noise, something that proves to me that F.L.A.C. is 'not' lossless! FLAC is lossless. Most vinyl ripping programs have the ability to remove extraneous noise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:03:07 GMT
I prefer cassettes, but they are not better than records I would wish to challenge that statement. Cassette has no pops and clicks, a wider dynamic range, and if you got a good deck and metal tapes you couldn't tell the difference between CD and cassette playback. My tape decks record the pops and crackles. If they didn't I would suspect the loss of high frequency information.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:05:15 GMT
FLAC is lossless. Most vinyl ripping programs have the ability to remove extraneous noise. I suspect this would reduce the treble information that was at the same frequency. If they remove something, that is a loss, is it not?
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Post by stanleyb on Jun 21, 2015 10:23:45 GMT
I would wish to challenge that statement. Cassette has no pops and clicks, a wider dynamic range, and if you got a good deck and metal tapes you couldn't tell the difference between CD and cassette playback. My tape decks record the pops and crackles. If they didn't I would suspect the loss of high frequency information.Recording the information is not the same thing as what you know I am on about. I bet you those pops and clicks that you recorded onto the cassette were not in the original recording. So somewhere along the line before they entered the cassette deck they got introduced into the signal path.
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Post by Tim on Jun 21, 2015 10:44:10 GMT
I'm stuck here, I don't understand how a copy of something can sound superior to the original. That's because you don't understand how a CD player works and how file based audio works and because you clearly have not compared the two in listening tests - you are guessing on what you believe to be true, but this is not based on any practical experience. You need to try both, hearing them in the same listening environment and then you can decide which you think is better. What you seem to have missed is that the source material, i.e. the digital data might be the same, but it's the method of playback that improves the sound quality of what you are hearing . . . do all CD players sound the same, playing the same disc? You are firing arrows in the dark at the moment and you're widely missing the target. This is unlikely to change unless you try it yourself, or hear somebody else's system and you need to research the playback principles, understanding jitter, power supply principles, what a FLAC file actually is and how a CDP actually converts digital data into analogue and how a software player retrieving the same digital data from RAM then converts that data to analogue. If that sounds complicated, I doubt you will ever grasp it. But try it and see if you think it sounds better, if it doesn't then all this tail chasing is moot.
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