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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 30, 2015 10:54:02 GMT
Testing out mains cables Coherent 4D, 5D and 6D from Tony of this parish First quickie on Friday was telling Massive difference in one cable. Assumed that was the 6D with the reassuringly expensive price  Track used. Mavis Staples - Eyes on the prize from the album We'll never turn back More time on Sunday Went for a change, for a change Been a while since we tested Ry Cooder's Soy Luz y Sombra from Chavez Ravine Wonderful track and on many previous upgrades we were amazed at the way the layers were peeled back to reveal more and more about the lead female vocalist and the backing vocals. She got older, weighed more and the other vocalists were revealed. Minimal difference between the 3 cables. I knew which ones, the other half didn't. I was surprised. She said no "real difference" Colour me puzzled Back to Mavis - Eyes on the prize on all three Again I knew which was which, the other half didn't. 4D - sounds good 5D - sounds better by a fair margin 6D - sounds better again by another margin Conclusions drawn You need to choose your tracks - even those that did the trick before. If upgrades work on some tracks but not others I can appreciate why some people "cannot hear the difference mains cable make". It's worth persevering In the cost justification for upgrades there are only some tracks that can take advantage of the upgrade. Some albums will become more favourite and *the* one for testing - until, maybe they fall over |
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Post by danielquinn on Mar 30, 2015 12:03:34 GMT
I despair . Yet more obfuscation .
So now if we cannot hear an upgrade it is because we listen to the wrong music . Dear o dear .
As a matter of logic . Two tracks/albums is not sufficient to establish it makes a difference for you , let alone any one else .
Also is their an equation i can use that will tell me how many tracks an upgrade must make sound better before i can say it is a genuine upgrade and not simply means I am some one who as become so immersed in the subjective elements of this hobby that I can no longer tell the wood from the trees ?
IMO track dependent upgrades is a bonkers idea and for the good of this hobby it is not one i wish to see become widespread .
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Post by pre65 on Mar 30, 2015 14:43:33 GMT
I find that the best test with new or upgraded parts is getting used to the new style of presentation for a while and then going back to the old to gauge the real differences.(notice I don't say better or worse)
Swapping between several items in a short period is (to me) a poor way to compare things properly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 14:49:32 GMT
I agree with Pre65. Very well put too IMO
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Post by danielquinn on Mar 30, 2015 14:54:58 GMT
I totally agree .There are some upgrades which are immediately obvious, in my experience these have been primarily cartridges or phono stages . I recently changed a ortofon for a zyx and the difference was immediate and obvious .
though the difference between a yamaha as1000 and nva was easy to hear straight away .
But others equipment , cables, capacitors , hard wiring are more subtle and require extended listening and then going back .
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 30, 2015 17:35:40 GMT
I agree too. Mike, I thought I'd got you sold on my 'live with it for a fortnight then go back' philosophy?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 17:41:35 GMT
I find the best idea is to choose your kit and then sit back and just listen to the music.
Saves time, money and aggravation.
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Post by pre65 on Mar 30, 2015 17:43:47 GMT
Fair enough advice if you have reached the pinnacle of what you can do, or want to do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 17:54:10 GMT
Fair enough advice if you have reached the pinnacle of what you can do, or want to do. If the music gets through and moves you, what more do you need. I thought it was about the music. It seems not to be the case with most hi-fi fans. |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 2, 2015 9:46:16 GMT
I find that the best test with new or upgraded parts is getting used to the new style of presentation for a while and then going back to the old to gauge the real differences.(notice I don't say better or worse)
Swapping between several items in a short period is (to me) a poor way to compare things properly. I completely agree. It takes time for differences to percolate through to your awareness. I play music that I'm familiar with, different types to listen for different things. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 3, 2015 11:25:08 GMT
Most of my upgrades have been instantly better.
The subtle ones were tried a few times. Occasionally the kit goes back.
I cycle through a known selection of albums and some new ones after upgrades.
The improvements are always there and nearly always I get an improved version of each
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2015 12:24:29 GMT
What isn't always understood: I send back more than I have kept over the years. My system is the extracted winners of everything I have tried. Most of the equipment I have tried goes back unmentioned, and I have borrowed a lot of kit (but I don't bother with what I cannot afford). Perhaps I will compile a list one day, although it's a lot to remember.
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2015 13:58:30 GMT
I thought it was about the music. It seems not to be the case with most hi-fi fans. That's because they're Hi-Fi fans and it's a hobby Gordon, which in my view is very different to being a music fan  |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2015 14:24:00 GMT
I thought it was about the music. It seems not to be the case with most hi-fi fans. Mmmm, I do wonder whether such statements are really just a kind of inverted snobbery put-down for reasons I don't really understand. Hi-Fi fans represent a tiny proportion of society already, is it really necessary to further subdivide us into those who love music and those who do it for another reason? What could be any other reason for having a hi-fi system other than enjoying high quality reproduction? Take a look at the wealth of different music enjoyed in both the What are you playing right now... threads and tell me who isn't a 'real' music fan? |
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2015 14:35:27 GMT
I didn't take that as snobbery Martin, certainly not for me anyway - but I do feel music fans, hi-fi fans, audiophiles are very different animals? You once made the comment to me that we listen to music in very different ways and I most definitely agree. There's no right or wrong way, but I do understand what Gordon means. Suum cuique as they say and any musical listening habit is a good thing, but I'm not really interested in the journey, just the destination, which is the music. It has to sound good mind you, but that's not what I'm passionate about. What could be any other reason for having a hi-fi system other than enjoying high quality reproduction? That's it in a nutshell right there Martin, the order of importance is different for the likes of Gordon and I, or so I suspect as I'm answering for him, but I think on this subject Gordon and I have agreed in the past. It's not something a non-audiophile really understands and vice versa |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2015 15:27:06 GMT
I think I follow but then when I look at it another way I really don't.
Recently I was at the Barbican listening to the Durufle Requiem, one of my all-time favourite pieces of music, in a performance that had me choking back the tears so achingly beautiful & powerful was it. I turned to Ruth and asked that a section of it be played at my funeral. I could think of no other music I would rather have.
When I was home some nights later, I wanted to get as close to that performance as I possibly could by playing my favourite recording of it at the same volume and with as close to the scale of the thing as is possible to have in my listening room.
What's wrong with that?
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2015 16:49:24 GMT
Nothing at all, but I get the impression this is an emotive subject for some and a tricky one to define to the satisfaction of all. I see music lovers, Hi-Fi fans, audiophiles (or whatever we class ourselves to be) as sitting on a sliding scale, which as you say is only a small section of society anyway. Where we all are on that scale depends on where you place the level of importance between sound quality and the music itself and this differs greatly amongst the forum members I have become familiar with over the last few years. I think there is quite a difference and those that call the joys of enjoying music a 'hobby' is something that has always baffled me, as does the ownership of 'reference recordings'. I don't have anything I would call a reference recording and I've got a lot of music, but then I don't chop and change my equipment and peripherals around, so don't really have the need for any I guess? I do have favourite records though, which I enjoy for their musical and lyrical content, not just for how they sound. I think if you sit on this sliding scale and place the music itself as the most important element, then a lot of Hi-Fi forums are likely to dissatisfy you as the emphasis is more about the gear than the music, so you get bored and move on, as there isn't really anything to hold the attention long term. Some people I think just listen to music, some listen to music being played on a Hi-Fi and I get the impression that a lot of audiophiles just listen to the Hi-Fi playing music and that music is little more than a test signal which they happen to enjoy the sound of. Nothing wrong with any of the above, whatever floats your boat, but I do think a lot of music lovers are often quite different to those that are 'into' Hi-Fi. I like Hi-Fi and enjoy listening to a good one, but I'm not 'into' it - but I am 'into' music. Now where's that box of fuses and cables I need to try out . . . . (that was a joke ) . . . 'live with it for a fortnight then go back'+1 |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2015 16:59:29 GMT
To me, hi-fi is the means of pursuing my musical passion. However, there is nothing wrong with the appreciation of the technical side of things too; after all, it's a means to an end (as is a computer) but the betterment of that objective is also enjoyable. Greater understanding does not prevent me from enjoying music!
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 3, 2015 17:17:42 GMT
The hifi is a pile of expensive junk without the music.
Music is part of my mind, body and soul
The upgrades give me more music, so much more that the kit is essential - to the music
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2015 20:29:26 GMT
Some Hi-Fis don't need an absence of music for them to be an expensive pile of junk Mike. There is no way over a thousand pounds worth of mains cable is going to give you a commensurate return IMO, just not possible. It might sound different or you may think it sounds different, but a thousand pounds worth of difference? Move the furniture around, buy a rug or change your speakers and then take the misses out for a nice meal, pocket the change and count your brownie points.
I really do seem to listen to (hear) music differently to you guys . . . I'll get my coat.
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