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Post by MartinT on Feb 25, 2015 20:14:37 GMT
Martin - that is typical of the blurring of subjectivism and objectivism which I find so frustrating. The statement is not untrue. The conclusions you draw from it are. Sometimes I find the reams and reams of prose you generate are causing all the blurring.
I took an engineering perspective. Conservation of energy. What goes in equals what comes out plus heat, simplistically. No energy, no noise just disappears. If it isn't filtered, it'll go right through the system and appear on the DC rails.
I don't have anything like the right equipment to measure it, however someone like Paul Hynes does. He can measure down to very low root mean square noise levels and has proven it time and time again by the veracity of his power supplies. For constant low current applications, the use of a battery proves it over a mains-powered PSU even of Paul Hynes' quality. I've heard a battery massively improve the Caiman-II DAC and its predecessors.
Finally, for big current impact, I've heard the effect of TonyC's filters on my power amp in my system right there in front of me. Incontrovertible, obvious and in comparing notes we both heard the same things. So some noise gets right through even my regenerator and still impacts a power amp with a switched-mode power supply.
I'm absolutely convinced that the management of noise is critical to the performance of a system. Simplistic views like 'nothing on the mains can affect a component's power supply' are just wrong. |
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Post by BilliumB on Feb 25, 2015 20:41:59 GMT
So folks, when do you think you'll be able to compare the benefits of balanced power vs regeneration vs filtering of mains. I'm looking forward to the Mother Trucker BPS vs P10 regenerator comparison with real interest.
Cheers. Bill
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 20:48:45 GMT
Comparison in a blind listening session?
That would be interesting to read the results.
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Post by Sovereign on Feb 25, 2015 21:45:11 GMT
So folks, when do you think you'll be able to compare the benefits of balanced power vs regeneration vs filtering of mains. I'm looking forward to the Mother Trucker BPS vs P10 regenerator comparison with real interest. Cheers. Bill Bill you make it sound like a World Title fight, we should sell ring side seats, I could make a fortune  |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 25, 2015 22:14:18 GMT
I would love to compare a BPS versus my P10, but it's going to be tricky comparing like-for-like unless I can find a BPS with at least four built-in UK sockets. Otherwise, I'd be adding another distribution setup on the output.
If anyone knows of such a BPS of about 1.5 - 2kW please let me know.
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Post by Sovereign on Feb 25, 2015 22:27:39 GMT
I can do some trickery pokery to make it work.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2015 5:41:16 GMT
It would be interesting to hear the difference if any between the two. I like that James Balanced unit has a lot of headroom and the P10 is an amazing unit (perhaps it be horses for courses)
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Post by BilliumB on Feb 26, 2015 8:56:31 GMT
As i wrote in another thread, I have a new listening/living room which is currentley a bare shell. The concrete floor gets it's hardwood floor tomorrow, so today the seprarate radial went in using LAPP cable. This is transformer isolated and balanced and will feed the power conditioners. Can't wait to get the kit moved over next week. Hi Doc Can you tell us a bit more about your setup. Have you got separate isolation and balanced transformers? Is the isolation transformer at the start or end of the radial? What are you doing for power conditioning? What about earthing setup etc? Thanks. Cheers. Bill |
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Post by Sovereign on Feb 26, 2015 9:29:40 GMT
Hi Bill
The balanced transformer is at the end of the SWA radial, after the dedicated consumer unit and before the hifi.
Earth to the dedicated consumer unit goes under the ground to the incoming Earth of my property bypassing my house altogether. I have not done any other modifications other than the SWA cable going from the incoming tales of the property to the dedicated consumer unit of my hi-fi.
Other than the balanced transformer there is no other conditioning , filtering or damping at all to the incoming mains which is how I prefer it at the moment, The only conditioner I have heard is the power inspired AG 1500 which is a remarkable product. I would like to compare the AG 1500 to Martin or Mikes P10.
When I do revisit my mains the first thing I would like to do is make some good power cables, at the moment all I use is 4mm oxygen free copper on Neutrik power connectors.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 14:01:02 GMT
Hi Bill,
The supply is from the consumer unit to the BPS, this feeds the radial which runs to the sockets behind the HiFi racks. There are then two Monster Power Conditioners and one feeds the digital rack the other the analogue side. We moved into the property yesterday an having been up till 4am unpacinkg and up again at 9!for the guyscwith the new cooker...... It may me a couple of days before I get the system up again.
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Post by BilliumB on Feb 26, 2015 19:43:29 GMT
Thanks Guys - the reason I asked is that I've read in the past that the optimum solution (which I understand recording studios might use) is mains into isolation transformer at entrance to property, feeding radial, feeding into balanced transformer in listening room, feeding kit - with as few plugs and sockets as possible. I'm not aware of anyone actually having experience of such a setup however!
On a separate note many knowledgable folk claim that an EI transformer will do a better job than a toroid as the balanced transformer, mainly I think, due to inherent rejection of noise - again however I've not managed so far to find anybody who has gone down the EI route. An alternative view is that a toroid will offer lower impedance - and this seems to be the route that all UK BMU manufacturers go down.
On earthing / grounding there appear to be conflicting views, with some saying improved earth rods etc (with all the relevant safety procedures) make a vast difference, while others say the exact opposite! The audioasylum.com forum has some interesting posts on the matter.
Cheers. Bill
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Post by Paul Barker on Feb 27, 2015 0:05:52 GMT
Well of course it turned into the usual bunfight.
People I know report varied results for straight forward isolation transformers. Some report they make things worse. Obviously that would depend on the transformer. There will be a minimum quality required.
I would have thought the slight gap inherent in EI construction even when interleaved assembly employed compared to the zero tolerance of DC in the standard power torroid would come out on top. But after a little dc blocker circuitry that benefit is pointless. Still, it would be my preference to employ laminations or core construction for this natural benefit. But the large power torroids are just so cheap you can't buy the EI or cores and copper for the price of a completed product in torroid.
I don't at the moment use a transformer. But I do use multiple level interference supression from the mains to all items. Then each item of equipment I make incorporates individual supression. In this way each item of equipment is discouraged from feeding each other piece of equipment with it's self generated noise.
Demonstrations of cmercial mains cleaning equipment have informed me that to clean the mains improves the end result, and at every additional level of cost of commercial gear and additional improvement is heard.
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Post by Paul Barker on Feb 27, 2015 0:08:08 GMT
sorry that my severe dyslexia makes what I write hard to follow. I did my best. On a re-read, it was a pathetic attempt.
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Post by BilliumB on Feb 27, 2015 11:49:34 GMT
Hi Paul
That's interesting, and easy to read so don't worry!
So, it's a cost issue - hadn't actually realised that, stupid of me. Is there a difference in impedance between 2 similarly power rated transformers - EI vs toroid? What about the impedance implications of the dc blocker (I currently use one with my Ben Duncan isolation transformer)?
Also interested in your thoughts on suppression - I assume you mean some form of filter?
Cheers. Bill
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Post by Paul Barker on Feb 27, 2015 21:19:10 GMT
Can't answer all those questions.
my unskilled take on emi filtering is to repeat the standard filters from microwave ovens etc. putting more than one in series seems to work for me. I have no expert ease in this matter.
regarding quality of EI or Core transformers it is a matter of winding sufficient turns per volt to make them completely silent and cool running for audio purposes. Standard industrial transformers are wound noisy and hot to save on materials costs.
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Post by The Brookmeister on Mar 9, 2015 22:43:55 GMT
Interesting thread.
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Post by Sovereign on Mar 9, 2015 22:57:54 GMT
regarding quality of EI or Core transformers it is a matter of winding sufficient turns per volt to make them completely silent and cool running for audio purposes. Standard industrial transformers are wound noisy and hot to save on materials costs. Paul your right here, when I compare an off the peg toroid witht the handmade ones I use the difference is there to hear. The chap that makes my transformers told me that when he is has to make toroids for brands that we all know of the spec and material list is crap, more than that off the peg toroids are never rated as what they are stated at. When I had large 3kVa balanced toroids they rattles so bad I could hear them in another room. My 5kVa one is dead silent! |
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Post by BilliumB on Mar 10, 2015 15:34:31 GMT
Any news on the World Title fight?
Cheers. Bill
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Post by Sovereign on Mar 10, 2015 23:09:21 GMT
Not sure if the other side is up to the challenge ;-) Only kidding.
I was offered a 12kVa balanced toroidal today, yes thats correct, 12 kVa!!!!!!! But I have to get it down from a third floor flat!
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Post by BilliumB on Mar 11, 2015 3:19:53 GMT
So, we're moving on to the Super Heavyweight fight? Go on James, you know you've got to try the 12kVA!
Cheers. Bill
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