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Post by mikeyb on Mar 6, 2018 7:46:51 GMT
Having done the box swapping marathon, I would have to say speakers first then the rest. If I'd done it that way like I told my wife I should then I'd have saved a fortune 😉
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 9:48:24 GMT
Just out of interest what source did you use Tony? Morning Jules The source we used in the TAD room was a Nova Fidelity X50D, most visitors thought it was significantly more in cost than it actually was. Here is my view, chap follows flat earth criteria/mantra/cult laid out by St Julian of Veriker and Lord Iver of Tiefenbrun. So he invests in a quality front end, say £4000 all in for total TT spend, CDP of trans/dac , hooks it up to say a nice £2000 amp section and a pair of Royd doublets, Linn kans, Neat petite 3's sound sounds ok maybe a few obvious short falls but on the whole guy is happy. Possible due to all the other sheep, sorry owners following the same route. The system is only as good as the weakest link, now are the amplification section or speakers capable of actually delivering the real performance the source is generating. So does this really cut the mustard and can you really work out what is the weak point of the system? Next up speakers first, so freshly cash acquired gent walks into audio store and says give the best speakers you have for XYZ£, so the dealers finds a way of shoehorning the best speaker he can muster for the gents budget. So you have a great open big transparent sounding pair of quality transducers, which cost £7000 feeding it was an average source at £2500 and and mediocre amplification will not provide the speakers with the 'food' it really needs to perform at their level. Or do they just merely reveal the below par chain below them? Yes they are exceptions, but very few. All you need to do is look in the classified of the usual places around the web and it will be full of equipment that forum 'x's Johnny Bravo wrote a stonking (yes I feel Stonking is apt!) review for some 6-8 week prior about his latest super purchase and how wonderful it sounds in his system. Now its quietly put up for sale as a great bargain. Why is this?, I would suggest it is not the equipment's fault, more of a system mis-match or tipping of the system balance that the sound now majors on one of two positive traits and the rest of the sound (which he previously liked) has now been thrown out of kilter. We have seen this so many times over the years, when a potential customer calls up and explains the situation and how they wish to get back to that 'sound' they had x number of years ago and how they have spent the last number of years going around in circles. I have always favoured a more balanced approached, letting the system breathe and allowing each of the components to function well into the performance envelopes. Just another view but I feel a valid one.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 6, 2018 10:02:45 GMT
In other words, minimise the bottleneck and you'll get the best sound you can manage for the outlay?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 11:18:19 GMT
Great post, Tony. Very well reasoned, if I may say so.
Those "exceptions" you refer to are indeed rare, but I find them fascinating, My most notable one was when I had Townshend Galstonburys. I tried a few amps and couldn't get them to work at all. I even tried the Kelvin Labs preamp and monoblocks Max recommended. I went further and changed the master bedroom into an alternative listenng room to try and get them working. Still no luck. For a laugh I hooked up the Musical Fidelity A1 from my second system and it transformed them. One of my best ever sounds, and one I'd love to have again.The A1 MC phono stage leaves much to be desired, so an external phono stage is needed, but that system sang with both vinyl (Rock/Excalibur/OC9) and CD (Denin 1520 and DPA PDM1 series 2 with 7350 chip).
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Post by ant on Mar 6, 2018 12:05:58 GMT
Get the speakers right and the rest will follow. The speakers do the err speaking, they are the point of contact, they deliver the sound. Ivor had it arse about face. Im not saying spend a shitload on the speakers and bugger all on the front end and amps, but surely it stands to reason that the bits that deliver the sound in the first place should be the place to start. To balance, there must be a balance point in the first place
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Post by zippy on Mar 6, 2018 12:26:49 GMT
Good system + cheap speakers trumps poor system + good speakers in my book
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Post by mikeyb on Mar 6, 2018 12:35:39 GMT
Good system + cheap speakers trumps poor system + good speakers in my book Opposite opinion here I'm afraid. Jerry has run megabucks speakers with little T amps at under £100 and been great, I very much doubt you'd get the same effect the other way round 😉
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 16:05:19 GMT
Great post, Tony. Very well reasoned, if I may say so. Those "exceptions" you refer to are indeed rare, but I find them fascinating, My most notable one was when I had Townshend Galstonburys. I tried a few amps and couldn't get them to work at all. I even tried the Kelvin Labs preamp and monoblocks Max recommended. I went further and changed the master bedroom into an alternative listenng room to try and get them working. Still no luck. For a laugh I hooked up the Musical Fidelity A1 from my second system and it transformed them. One of my best ever sounds, and one I'd love to have again.The A1 MC phono stage leaves much to be desired, so an external phono stage is needed, but that system sang with both vinyl (Rock/Excalibur/OC9) and CD (Denin 1520 and DPA PDM1 series 2 with 7350 chip). Those rarities do throw up some curve balls indeed. A few years ago I came up with a switching amplifier design that used chip switching (no off board FET's) it genuinely gave a real 78Wrms into 6 Ohms and THD was very low at 0.03@1Khz of rated power (which is good for a switch amp at the time) no it remains simply one of the best amplifiers I heard to date at any price, it simply flows music period. Until last year it even challenged my personal amp on speakers with 89dB sens and nomial 4 ohms load. It would quite happily show clean pairs of heels to quite serious amplification costing 10 of £K, I did spend two years on the project though. Did you ever pop any drivers on the Glastonbury's at all?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 16:13:15 GMT
I somehow managed to avoid that outcome. They had no end stops so it was always a risk. It sounds like a cliche but they never hardened up like every other speaker I have heard. They were so immensely clean and pure when turned up. All you got was more delight, so I can see how many people blew them. If I could have another pair today, I would. I have lots more experience of kit now and I'm sure they would work fab with something like an Audion Sterlng mk1 amp. If not, I could always grab another A1.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 6, 2018 16:19:53 GMT
Just out of interest what source did you use Tony? So he invests in a quality front end, say £4000 all in for total TT spend, CDP of trans/dac , hooks it up to say a nice £2000 amp section and a pair of Royd doublets, Linn kans, Neat petite 3's sound sounds ok maybe a few obvious short falls but on the whole guy is happy. That would make no sense to me for a digital route but still seems valid for vinyl, assuming that the punter is planning to upgrade amp or speakers in the future to make the most of his front end ... Another point, when talking about second-hand gear it's sometimes not so easy to work out prices. For example, I paid £500 for my Chatsworths - well they are worth a lot more than that second-hand, and who knows what they would cost new if made today, so difficult to make valid comparisons with of rest of system. I guess what we are saying in general is that there should be no hard and fast rules any more, bearing in mind what can be achieved with cheap digital sources and digital amps etc
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 6, 2018 16:23:39 GMT
For a laugh I hooked up the Musical Fidelity A1 from my second system and it transformed them. One of my best ever sounds, and one I'd love to have again.The A1 MC phono stage leaves much to be desired, so an external phono stage is needed, but that system sang with both vinyl (Rock/Excalibur/OC9) and CD (Denin 1520 and DPA PDM1 series 2 with 7350 chip). I loved the original A1 - I came close to owning one on a number of occasions. I heard it demoed with a Rock front end and it always sounded wonderful.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 6, 2018 16:27:44 GMT
My recent 2-3 year upgrade path *broadly* started with the source. Mains, then record deck and mods, CD players, Pre Amp, power Amp. All good and worked well ending up with Rega Isis CD and Technics 1210. Last year there was jumping around as the Isobariks said the Pass Labs Pre and Chord Power amp sounded the same as the Belles Pre and Monoblocks. This came as a surprise. That was when firstly the Auram Montans came in and finally the very wonderful TAD E1s. Mains cables, interconnects and speaker stands also upgraded thanks to our Tony. You start somewhere - Zen Logical place seems to be the front end. For me that is mains then the originators, CDP, Vinyl, Streaming. Exception has to be if you have a weak link in the system. (and how do you find that out ?!) The weak links in somany systems are the 'other bits' - mains cables, supports interconnects and they can make such a difference. One day if I make the time and have a reasonable *interested* audience I shall detune my system with 1p mains leads, no supports and no mains treatments. I assume it will sound not at all good and not VFM.
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Post by ant on Mar 6, 2018 17:17:42 GMT
Arent accessories such as supports, cables ect supposed to make things 'better' rather than correct intrinsic deficiencies in the system? If you dont like the system 'as is' in the first place then what is the point in throwing money at accessories to correct it? Surely it would be more sensible to get it right to start with.
If you removed a load of accessories and then suddenly it sounded crap and wasnt value for money then there would to me be an inherent mismatch somewhere.
I think that sometimes there is a tendency to put far too much stock in the effect of accessories. To me they should be the icing and not the cake itsself.
Spend what you want, buy what you want, get something you like, then improve on it if you can with accessories, not force it to sound right if it was wrong to you in the first place by chucking money in the wrong direction. Accessories in my opinion should be stone dead last
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 6, 2018 17:26:08 GMT
One day if I make the time and have a reasonable *interested* audience I shall detune my system with 1p mains leads, no supports and no mains treatments. I assume it will sound not at all good and not VFM. I think that would be a worthwhile experiment Mike! With the quality of your components I find it difficult to believe that your system would suddenly sound pants though ...
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 6, 2018 17:34:13 GMT
One day if I make the time and have a reasonable *interested* audience I shall detune my system with 1p mains leads, no supports and no mains treatments. I assume it will sound not at all good and not VFM. I lean towards Ant's point of view here - if it were to sound bad, then I'd sell the whole lot straight away and get something fundamentally more satisfying.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 6, 2018 19:21:46 GMT
This system and I assume all or most systems has been heard with the current set up of everything that was in place then. Not any of the bits I had weeks, months or years ago. The moving path of upgrades. Each upgrade (that stayed) added to the sound of the system whether kit or bits. Didn't stay if it wasn't better.
The system sound quality is reduced by taking out *any* component and downgrading it. When I recently plugged in my old Isobariks to dem them for sale the sound was good, but in comparison to the E1s broken and I could not go back.
Chorus : Ah yes but that was the speakers !
One component of my system. All the kit is allowed to do what it can do by the strength of the total system. Weak link anywhere will knock the sound quality. How much that might be for each piece is the question. My opinion is the all the bits removed will make the system sound bad - in comparison to how it sounds now. Speculation.
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Post by John on Mar 7, 2018 8:12:27 GMT
Thinking about my own system and journey I would have to say its the speakers that has influenced my sound the most. I started off rather traditional Jamo Concerts 8 and spent a fortune trying to get them to sound balanced in my room, including cables and upgrades. Then tried a few different speakers, moving to full range. Including some uninspiring Wilson Benesch Actors and the Wharfedale Opus 3 which apart from not having the greatest bass drivers in the world were not too bad. At this time I was pretty much down the route of traditional high end. VPI Superscoutmaster Rim Drive, Advantage pre amp and Musical Fidelity 3d player that been highly modified I had a PS audio power plant and everything on solid Tech Feet of Silence with all PS Audio statement cables. A friend introduced me to open baffles and then my system moved away from a traditional approach to what it is now. A complete mix of approaches. Somehow it all works in my room. The biggest change was moving to my current speakers I get close to the kinds of performance Martin gets but not quite the full magical experience. I think two main reasons, his room is amazing and everything is performing at a very high level, good as what the pi is it is not as good as the Ayre. Yes my system is not pretty to look at, certainly not traditional and would never be something that could become a commercial success. I have a different outlook on speakers I like sensitive speakers, this reduces the need for expensive amps to get the best out of them. I also think a lot of value to going down either an active route like SpeedySteve or a F.A.S.T. configuration (FullRange Assisted Subwoofer Technology) can be achieved (nice to be rid of crossover components getting in the way of the sound) but understand this is not going to be a route most will consider. I have half of the system running off batteries and whilst I use the odd specialist audio mains cable. I no longer need to have expensive mains treatments I think what great is that there are more than one way to achieve good sound. Going to visit friends and forum members its been great to hear such wide ranging different approaches that bring a slightly different take to how music is presented.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 7, 2018 8:30:11 GMT
Arent accessories such as supports, cables ect supposed to make things 'better' rather than correct intrinsic deficiencies in the system? Yes, I agree. The system must work to a decent standard to start with.
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 10, 2018 9:56:35 GMT
My hifi components are of the budget variety, with no hi end cables, I usually by upgraded phono interconnects for £10 a pair which normally improve the grounding on old inputs. I use a better speaker cable than bell wire but probably works out at £1/MTR.
I generally listen to the radio 30% play vinyl 60% of the time and subscribe to Google PLAY via my Samsung S6 which I plug into my amp aux. I've have 4-5 vintage amps from the late 70s and each one sounds different, sometimes worse to me and that I have discovered is due to the speakers matching. My wharfedale Linton's xp2 sound great through my Trio KR4070, using my Ariston RD11,when Iconnected the KEF IQ5s it was absolutely pants. Lifeless, and devoid of any interest. I swapped the amp to my AKAI AA1125 and it changed for the better but not as warm, a bit to clinical. So what I'm saying is that unless you have the ability to trial a variety of kit in the actual living space it's a never ending journey. I read somewhere 50yrs ago turntables were given short shrift, everything focused on the cartridge/stylus combination, TT Manufacturers obviously didn't agree so the source first pandemic was instigated. Hifi manufacturers need to make money, and anyone interested in a hobby no matter what will always be led down a path.
A bit of a ramble but typing on my trusting Samsung whilst listening to REM
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 12:17:40 GMT
Good system + cheap speakers trumps poor system + good speakers in my book Opposite opinion here I'm afraid. Jerry has run megabucks speakers with little T amps at under £100 and been great, I very much doubt you'd get the same effect the other way round 😉 I recently sold my Usher mini dancer 2s (due to having a puppy Rottweiler and new born boy). The guy that bought them kindly loaned me a pair of Usher s520 so i can still listen to music. They’re worth around 10% of my old ones and my set up is much higher quality than them. When I plugged them in, I was more impressed by what they could do than upset at what I was missing! I’ve always thought a balanced approach to build is best, I want as near as possible to 100% from every component, otherwise you’re wasting potential. The downside to this is it’s hard to know when to stop lol. My source now is what I’d call above average. It’s a home made server with: SOtM pcie USB card Upgraded SOtM clock for card Upgraded SOtM clock for motherboard All ssd and passive cooling (no moving parts) Jcat SATA cables Paul Hynes sr7 ehd 4 rail (blue sr fuse) with captive soft annealed silver power lead, on still points ultra ss footers Ram and ssds have stillpoint era cloth and damping Runs Linux snake oil is (jrmc 23 on phone for control) The trick now is working out what speakers would be a good match for it (in truth I think my original ushers were the weak link in the system).
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