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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 10:43:57 GMT
I remember the '80s very well because they were my formative years in terms of hifi. The "Source First" mantra was everywhere, so much so that you were almost considered a heretic if you disagreed.
Things seem to have moved on dramatically today. For one thing, sources have expanded. CD was seen as inferior to vinyl and we had no computer audio. The likes of Raspberry PI and it's associated bits are reported to create a very good sound for peanuts. When Source First was in its heyday, vinyl was King and engineering was more of a factor in terms of cost.
We also had the LP12 Flat Earth element: A turntable manufacturer arguably driving the debate. Sure, they made speakers and then amps and CD players, but they faced competition in these spheres. Their turntable was seen as "top dog" meaning Source First was always going to benefit them.
So so how true is it today? Well I still feel it applies to a significant degree with vinyl. I'd always buy the best deck, arm and cart I could afford if vinyl was my main source. I would also focus next on the phono stage, because this can make or break your vinyl sound. I'd qualify that by saying that the Used market offers some exceptional vinyl sources for just a few hundred quid.
What about CD? personally cannot live with (or even bear to listen to) the majority of CD payers and DACs. Mk1 Rega Planet has been the only listenable cheap player for me. It's not necessarily a cost thing though, because the flagship Marantz players sound utterly poisonous to me. Anything that sounds "digital" is a complete turn off.
Computer Audio? Others would have to comment, as I'm. Not into it, but there seems to be a lot of love for the PI and its extras. Probably lots of other ways to get there too. This alone would suggest "Source First" is a pretty redundant concept today.
I've posted my thoughts to stimulate debate, so please chip in and feel free to disagree with every word above!
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Post by Tim on Mar 5, 2018 11:01:47 GMT
Always been a heretic, always disagreed with that and I still do . . speakers are the most important thing in my book and should be well over half the budget, possibly 75% or even higher. Nothing or anyone has ever been able to change my mind on that, so don't even try  Suum cuique |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 11:06:25 GMT
Always been a heretic, always disagreed with that and I still do . . speakers are the most important thing in my book and should be well over half the budget, possibly 75% or even higher. Nothing or anyone has ever been able to change my mind on that, so don't even try Suum cuique I agree with Tim, I think the most important aspect is the speakers, then you build a system around them. Next would be cables, supports and fuses  |
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Post by John on Mar 5, 2018 12:03:39 GMT
I was mostly spending my time going to concerts then
I agree speakers integrating in the room is very important
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Post by zippy on Mar 5, 2018 12:27:01 GMT
As an 'oldie' the source-first idea applied right up to the time of digitisation.
After that, the difference between digital sources seemed to me to be way less than between different analogue sources,.
I do not however believe that speakers now come first.
To me the important thing now is to get the whole system balanced. Once that is done, then maybe you can play with different speakers if you really want to.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 5, 2018 12:34:45 GMT
Well I still feel it applies to a significant degree with vinyl. I'd always buy the best deck, arm and cart I could afford if vinyl was my main source. I would also focus next on the phono stage, because this can make or break your vinyl sound. I'd qualify that by saying that the Used market offers some exceptional vinyl sources for just a few hundred quid. As a vinyl only man I would still agree with this 100%. |
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Post by Slinger on Mar 5, 2018 12:36:25 GMT
As a complete non-hi-fi person I would probably give equal weight to amp and to speaker selection. Cables next. Once the basic infrastructure is established then source(s) can be experimented with. Of course, if you don't already have at least one source you're happy with so that you can test your infrastructure as you go... Now my head hurts, dammit!
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 5, 2018 12:39:44 GMT
Uh oh - Paul has dropped a C-bomb in the thread!   |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 5, 2018 12:46:09 GMT
I agree with Tim and would suggest Speakers 50%, amp 25%, primary source 25% as a rule. However, the Raspberry Pi changes that and can be an excellent source for very much less. In which case, put more into the speakers.
Speakers define the overall presentation and quality, the rest can be tweaked to feed through as much as you can afford.
Oh, and do not forget room treatment, mains treatment and at least decent cables.
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Post by Tim on Mar 5, 2018 13:38:45 GMT
Speakers define the overall presentation and quality, the rest can be tweaked to feed through as much as you can afford. 100% agree there Martin . . . woohoo, we should throw a party, something we totally agree on I feel Jupiter's rings are differently aligned . . . |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 5, 2018 13:40:19 GMT
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 5, 2018 14:42:58 GMT
The introduction of things like the Pi hasn't really changed the fundamental truth of Andrew's premise. However, my point is that all too often, quality is equated to price whereas they are two completely different things. Speakers are harder to get right, so they need more of the budget allocated to them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 15:23:18 GMT
Never ever bought into source first at all.
To illustrate the point the source we used at the recent Bristol Show was 1/35th the cost of the system
Also have a more balanced approach, however room speaker interface is critical in obtaining a quality sound.
Personal system the amplifiers are the most cost though only by 5% over the speakers.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 5, 2018 16:28:43 GMT
Just out of interest what source did you use Tony?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 17:04:42 GMT
I've been otherwise occupied and haven't kept up, so I've just read a good few posts at once. It's turned out to be a marvellous thread IMO, with loads of great points and radically varying perspectives.
I love Chris B's point about price and quality. I think that has a bearing on my feelings too. My complaint about most CD players is that they are below a minimum level of sound (and build) quality. If I was spending ten grand on a system, I'd probably not spend more than the price of a Naim CDI, CDX, Copland 266 or maybe a CDS1 if I was pushing the boat out. My CD source would therefore be a small part of my budget.
However, give me a two grand budget or even a grand, and I'd still never stoop below that level of player. The CD player would therefore take a far greater slice of the pie. My spending on amp and speakers would then depend on size and efficiency of the speakers. Size would be driven by the the room to accommodate the speakers. If I could use big, efficient speakers, I'd spend more on them and drive with an integrated, probably valve. Large inefficient speakers would mean a balancing act between both amp and speakers, because good high power amps tend to cost more.
If a small room meant using small close-wall speakers. I'd be spending less on them and would up the amp budget.
Is that the "weakest link" philosophy? I'm not sure.
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Post by Tim on Mar 5, 2018 17:44:36 GMT
Just out of interest what source did you use Tony? I'm guessing something file based audio Got to spend an awful lot on a CD player these days to compete with a good box playing lossless music files. |
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Post by Chris on Mar 5, 2018 18:14:58 GMT
Does anyone else use their phone as a source like me?
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Post by Tim on Mar 5, 2018 18:54:32 GMT
Does anyone else use their phone as a source like me? Only when I'm out walking with headphones. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 19:06:23 GMT
I prbably would se it as a personal device while travelling, but it's only 16gb memory and I have an iPod with 80gb. IIf Apple ever stop being stingy with iPad storage,mi will likely out all my iTunes recordings on an iPad mini and use that.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 5, 2018 19:29:28 GMT
I was sold on source first in the 80s. Seemed logical, still does.
Today I look at all aspects. Keeping the system balanced and looking for the weak link/s
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