tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 1, 2018 13:06:09 GMT
Hi All
I have 2 main turntables at the moment a Sony X600 which has the biotracer arm and is quite easy to experiment with different cartridges, however i had recently acquired a Ariston RD11e, which I trying to sort out, It has terrible earthing issues somewhere creating massive static, ( I end up send the good lady to change the record lol) and the auto shutoff timing is out. I can propably sort out the latter but my electrical knowledge is next to nothing.
Anyway i am looking at replacing the old cartridge(s) that came with it for something better / different and i'm not sure what would be suitable. It would be a MM as i do'nt have a MC input on any of my amps.
Supplied with the TT were an Ortofon FF15 which i'm using now, but guess its very old. Have 2 other headshells booth with pickering cartridges one is silver colour with Pickering system series, the other is a XV-15 / 625E. The latter 2 have no stylus so assuming that a complete new cartidge and stylus would be required.
Any ideas on equivalent or better combinations that i could swap out the stylus and use on both TT's would be very helpful.
Thanks
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Post by MartinT on Mar 1, 2018 13:23:02 GMT
Why not get a replacement stylus for the Pickering 625E as it's a pretty decent cartridge? That would certainly be the most inexpensive way to get up and running. Pickering 625E Stylus |
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 28, 2018 17:12:24 GMT
Looked at the replacement stylus for the Pickering 625E cartridge. Also have a Ortofon silver as well. What would be the best recommendations for a Jelco SA-50 arm to go with my Ariston RD11 turntable.
ATM I quite like the relaxed / smooth Ortofon sound with the FF15 stylus however I can spend £100 on cartridge with std Ariston headshell, or would buy new headshell / cartridge combo if it would give improved results.
Any suggestions clever people?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 18:07:32 GMT
have always had a bit of a soft spot for the A&R P77, but you won't be finding a new one of those. You'd have to buy a used one, but you'd only need about £50. You could also seek out a used Goldring 1012/1022/1042 or the earlier 1010/1020/1040. They are very good for MMs and do come up regularly. Prices can vary wildly, especially when listed as a buy it now, so you can get a real bargain.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 29, 2018 7:26:00 GMT
The P77 lives on as the Sumiko Pearl, or should I say, the E77 does more likely. It's an old fashioned MM with a bold beefy tone (and a high frequency suck-out). The P77 stylus should still be available from ESCo who made the later ones for A&R.
I have an FF15E with new F/FF stylus. Like the VMS5E which replaced it, it's now safe as houses like an AT95E and wouldn't say boo to a goose to be honest. The Pickering 625E is a bit the same, but should be clearer overall.
Not knowing the tonearms, it's difficult to make suggestions (Ariston was a bad job for us as the main bearing spindles became chrome plated which peeled and set up was erratic and not stable). The Goldring E3 should be a step up on the AT95E as should the related AT520. The Shure 97XE is a very safe choice, still cheap as imo it's way above the Nagaokas which I regard as over-priced these days (they used to be not much above AT95E price years ago, so what's going on?). The Sumiko I mentioned is funky and fun if not fully accurate to what's really there on the vinyl.
If you can screw in from above, don't forget the lively 2M Red either. A rather different balance to an FF15E, but the Red is for modern systems used to neutral sources and it shouldn't offend at all - Like the Om10 and 510 before it, it gets better with the deck and arm...
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 29, 2018 7:38:59 GMT
The P77 lives on as the Sumiko Pearl, or should I say, the E77 does more likely. It's an old fashioned MM with a bold beefy tone (and a high frequency suck-out). The P77 stylus should still be available from ESCo who made the later ones for A&R. I have an FF15E with new F/FF stylus. Like the VMS5E which replaced it, it's now safe as houses like an AT95E and wouldn't say boo to a goose to be honest. The Pickering 625E is a bit the same, but should be clearer overall. Not knowing the tonearms, it's difficult to make suggestions (Ariston was a bad job for us as the main bearing spindles became chrome plated which peeled and set up was erratic and not stable). The Goldring E3 should be a step up on the AT95E as should the related AT520. The Shure 97XE is a very safe choice, still cheap as imo it's way above the Nagaokas which I regard as over-priced these days (they used to be not much above AT95E price years ago, so what's going on?). The Sumiko I mentioned is funky and fun if not fully accurate to what's really there on the vinyl. If you can screw in from above, don't forget the lively 2M Red either. A rather different balance to an FF15E, but the Red is for modern systems used to neutral sources and it shouldn't offend at all - Like the Om10 and 510 before it, it gets better with the deck and arm... Yes current Ariston headshell allow screwing in from above, might well try an old Pickering and an ortofon red |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 9:02:45 GMT
I know very little about Pickering cartridges but would like to try one a of the more highly rated models one day. I have always found MC cartridges to be massively superior to MM, but I live in hope of finding something that will close the gap. There's a whole level,of clarity and high frequency extension that I just haven't heard from an MM. Closest were probably the Goldring 1040/42 and Roksan Corus Black. Still not close enough though.
It's somewhat odd that I like the P77 because it is a bit rolled off at the top end. It somehow seems to make everything sound more lyrical and musical though, so I can forgive it to an extent. It was very good indeed in the Mayware Formula IV unipivot arm. The Sumiko sounds poor in comparison and IMO not worth seeking out.
I'm probably the wrong person to ask about Ortofon MMs as I have hated every one I've heard with a passion. They are the "un-garnished rice cakes" of the cartridge world AFAIC: Bland as wet cardboard and equally mushy.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 29, 2018 18:23:12 GMT
Andrew, I feel myself it's down to the speakers you have and whether you like neutral digital sources or not. I had it drummed into me again today that there's 'digital' (Rega Saturn R which is no slouch) and 'DIGITAL' (Luxman 06 model, I forget the other letters) which in comparison was an 'EFF ME!' kind of moment. Even so, none of the older designed MM cartridges would 'do' music the same I think.
One thing I found after trying out my Stanton 681EEE a few years ago. It's not a 'rigidly mounted' cartridge so although you can tilt the body for precise azimuth as seen from the front, I found the bass a little soft. No lack of top on mine despite the response downtilt. To me, it's a bit like the Shure V15t2 and you notice the mids rather than excess sparkle. Highs are still good on the Stanton though, just a little restrained. the Pickering 625 is similar or identical I think to the Stanton 680E (so many bloody numbers and cartridges made side by side - sorry if I've got it wrong). The XV15/625 tracks at 1.5g, the 681EEE at 1.2g.
When judging MC's, I had a wake-up call comparing them to master recordings, but I'd better shut up about it. On the right arm and turntable and if it's working right, I'm a confirmed Decca fan I'm afraid and a good one is more understated than some wild MC's, but clearer from top to bottom than many MM's - in my experience anyway. I do still like the 2M Bronze (I don't think any 2M is stodgy or lacking in life, but maybe they bite too much for some?) and I like the 'flavour' of many AT's too, which I accept may be too lean toned and toppy for some tastes.
I have a damaged stylus P77Mg and really ought to get a stylus for it while I still think I can.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 29, 2018 18:34:04 GMT
I had a Garrott Bros P77i and had a spare P77 stylus made for me by ESCO - sadly it wasn't anywhere near as good as the original stylus which Garrott custom designed.
Ultimately I sold the P77i as I was finding the treble roll-off made my rock and pop recordings just too smooth for my liking. Sounded great with classical though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 2:41:29 GMT
I haven't had the opportunity to try a Garrott P77 but I would have loved to. You hear so many people sing its praises and the original just has "something" about it that makes it more than a piece of hardware. I did try a P77MG but it seemed to change the basics of the cartridge a little and left me with mixed feelings. I had a standard P77 at the time and I reverted to that. I still wish I'd kept it though, because sometimes another deck and arm can yield different results.
I haven't heard the 2M bronze or Blue, but I have heard the Red and Black and I wouldn't give either of them house room. The OM series is just about the worst cartridge family I have encountered (closely followed by the VMS series). I was surprised to see a stripped down 2M black recently. It's pretty much an OM cartridge disguised by a plastic outer shell. It explained a lot to me about the sound. To me, the OM series will never be any more than the "throwaway"' job you used to get on a £90 Dual 505. The best thing you could do to make that deck (almost) listenable was to bin the thing and fit an AT95e. I was told that Dual used to buy those OM10s for 50p and that doesn't surprise me. I can't believe the price they charge for OM carts today: Back in the 80s, nobody had a good word to say about them.
I can totally get the importance of personal taste, but the prices of the higher range MM carts seem alarming to me today. I seem to recall reading that the price difference between a conical and super-duper line contact tip is small to the maker (£5-6?). As it's often only the stylus profile that separates the cheapest from the most expensive cartridge in a range, I struggle to see the value in some of them.
A bit of thread drift, for which I apologise, but it will hopefully illustrate two things for the OP:
1. Cartridges are very personal and there are real differences in presentation. Moreso perhaps, than anything else in hifi.
2. Setup is often crucial and some cartridges work best in some arms.
I'm sure the OP will enjoy the journey of discovering the differences and there's nothing quite like that Cinderella moment when the glass slipper fits and you know you've got it right for you. It makes up for all the times you faff about and ultimately give up on a cartridge.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 30, 2018 9:01:19 GMT
May I turn the above on it's head please. Do you find 'digital' painful? Do you also find online radio streams painful too? if so, I can understand why you don't like modern Ortofon MM's. Anyway, I'm becoming addicted to the way AT's have with music - no leaden feet here or spiky highs and the AT's track well too - reviews in German with measurements on all of the popular models discussed, together with soundbites on the German Lowbeats site www.lowbeats.de/artikel/test/phono/tonabnehmer-mm/page/2/Use a translator and start from page 2, Ortofon 2M, Goldring (Nagaoka made) 2200 series, Regas from the AT91 based Carbon upwards, and so on to the modern ATs and hand made B&O derived Soundsmiths... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 12:44:11 GMT
Hi Dave. It's a good question. The only players I'd describe as painful are the likes of the CD52 mk2. I can't think of a single player by anyone other than Marantz which would deserve that tag. Most players I find bland, flat footed and electronic, but not tonally bright, hard or harsh. It's more the lack of drive and rhythm I find unacceptable about cheap CD players. Usually a player with a decent power supply is a decent player. I find this more of a factor than DAC chip.
I'm fine with online radio except for the adverts, which are always loud and aggressive in their content. But then I hate adverts full stop.
I do love most AT cartridges, even the cheapies. The 95e is something I could still live with, although I do prefer the 110e. The MCs are more my thing and I've never heard a bad one. OC9 or AT33? I like both and would be very happy with either for the rest of my life. Same with the AT32e.
As for ortofon, I find the OM series (10 and 20..... Never tried the 30 or 40) to be below any level of sonic acceptability. They sound thin, lightweight and bland. They have oft been the installed (freebie) cartridge on the Ariton Q deck, Project Debut and Dual 505 etc. Many reviews of those turntables recommended binning the OM cart. Having done so on all of them, I can say that it yielded immediate improvements way beyond the cost involved. I'm literally perplexed at the OM (and the disguised 2M) resurgence because nobody gave them any respect a few years ago. I must have binned half a dozen OM10s in my life because I deemed them to be of no worth to anyone, I can't say that about any other cart.
The VMS series are pretty old now, but I did have a couple of VMS20s. They weren't quite as unacceptable as the OM series, but they were not only dull and bland, they were sub AT95e in performance.
Ortofon MMs can be a mixed bag. I forget the name now but I had a cheapish MC with a clear orange body (Samba? salsa?). It was just a bit poor, but better than most MMs. MC20 and MC30 variants aren't exactly bad and I could live with them for a bit (and have done) but the equivalent AT MCs make them sound thin and lightweight in comparison. Given a straight choice, I would never choose any ortofon over any AT, even if I was offered it for half the price. A quarter of the price and I'd probably have to think about an MC30.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 30, 2018 13:29:22 GMT
I'm in agreement for a change and just trying to gently find some common ground we can communicate from. See, it's my view currently that if the speakers are a bit brightly lit or even aggressive, then an OM10 for instance will take yer fillings out. For example, I've said before that in the mid to late 80's and in the days of third generation cheap CD players (Philips CD 620 and 630 which came just before the CD52SE multi-bit beast), a Dual 505-2 with it's OM10 sibling sounded scrappy and harsh, something older Duals don't ime. The crap plastic plinth and lighter construction from mat to platter to deck plate meant an OM20 was about as sonically good as you could go and in fact I was put off the OM10 for years because of this. In recent times, Rega replaced the OM10 on the RP1 with the charming little Carbon (posh AT91) and Lowbeats found the Carbon measured better than all their other MM's too I think, tip profile aside. Lively but clean and never a hint of splatter or hash. The elliptical tips you can get for it (mine's a Dual DN251E but there's an actual AT model but I can't remember what it is) takes away the hf peak and the sound gentles down a bit and opens a bit more up top (too much 'gentling' possibly?). My 1019 has a 520mk2 in it and it's wonderful, if a little OTT in presentation...
Total aside and drift to CD reproduction, but I compared a Rega Saturn R to the four grand Luxman '06' player yesterday. An 'Eff Me' moment you might just agree with? The 509mk2 amp was pretty damned great as well and must be better musically than a Naim for the same high money (eight grand or so).
Apologies for drifting off so much here. The Pickering XV15/625E was rated well at the time so for the OP, I'd suggest a new stylus while its available is a bit of a no brainer perhaps? They used to be around seventy quid for the whole cartridge I recall, but then the pound slumped against the dollar by 30% and for some reason I seem to remember, it meant that US/Jap audio-gear imports doubled in price very quickly rather than a 50% increase. Same again (almost) after the Brexit vote, but little sign the prices are falling now that the pound has recovered so much lost ground (I think far eastern trade is done with Dollars). We don't arf have the pee taken out of us here in the UK where prices are concerned, but I digress... |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 30, 2018 13:47:00 GMT
P.S. Pukka original Pickering 625 styli can still be got from Vickers in York, but it'll cost you £90. The complete cartridge has gone from £80 to £150 in ten years or so  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 14:24:00 GMT
Aaaah I remember Vickers very well. They and the Sound Org used to be my local shops. Vickers never really had much "credibility" because they liked the Gyrodec, Pickering cartridges, Harman Kardon amps and Monitor Audio speakers. Whilst I'm not a lover of the Gyro, I do like HK and MA products of that era and I expect I'd like the Pickerings. I just find it typical of hifi fashion that Vickers product choices would be viewed far more favurably today than they were in the 80s.
I will have to try a Pickering one day.
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 30, 2018 23:52:00 GMT
Thats a really interesting comment regarding the Ortofon /AT comparison. I have always been a big fan of AT carts but fancied something different but trying to avoid buying a lemon. Might try Vickers for an older style cartridge and look at a better model AT to play alongside
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 31, 2018 10:00:43 GMT
P.S. Pukka original Pickering 625 styli can still be got from Vickers in York, but it'll cost you £90. The complete cartridge has gone from £80 to £150 in ten years or so frame width="14.32000000000005" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 14.32px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_99878998" scrolling="no"></iframe><iframe width="14.32000000000005" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 14.32px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 661px; top: -124px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_82079651" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="14.32000000000005" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 14.32px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8209600" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="14.32000000000005" height="3.280000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 14.32px; height: 3.28px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 661px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_67686303" scrolling="no"></iframe> It appears Vickers no longer have these unfortunately |
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tonedeaf
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Post by tonedeaf on Mar 31, 2018 10:04:21 GMT
Any thoughts on Grado or Denon
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Post by MartinT on Mar 31, 2018 10:55:20 GMT
Surely for £28 it's worth trying the stylus I pointed to if only to find out if you like the sound of the Pickering?
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Post by dsjr on Mar 31, 2018 11:07:21 GMT
May well be fine, but Stanton made comments about some pattern types not being the same internally. No idea, but modern diamonds do seem rather better ground and polished than originals were I think.
I've known Grado's for forty odd years now and the cheapest ones (originally the F-CE/F3E and now the Black) were usually the best. My experiences with the Prestige range (three basic stylus models graded into two per model giving six in total) is that they get duller and more bland as you go up the range - it measures like this too, the cheapest ones having a hf peak to put some live and zing back! Just my vibe of course and in grado's defence, I remember with great fondness the reference models they used to make (and more recent wooden body models) which weren't so bland sounding and with great 'texture' to midrange sounds..
As for Denon. I've no idea on many of their MC models (noting another forum owner raved about one which nobody else had ever bothered with). The 103 is a tank which needs a massy arm despite it's not too low compliance and which has a lossy conical tip - Even I can bloody hear the rolling off at side end, why can't anyone else? The DL110 is rather pricy now and sounds rather like an AT95E on steroids, as does the even more stupid price Dynavector 10XV, which used to sell for DL110 money (it hasn't changed very much apart from the top plate, so make your own mind up)... Apologies for the opinionated views here. Of course you may well disagree, but my take is from nearly fifty years of following model evolution and price jockeying as time's gone on - I seriously can't understand it and I really do think 'slurp has a lot to do with it with some makes.
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