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Post by julesd68 on Feb 27, 2017 20:32:19 GMT
Dear vinylists,
I've come to realise that I know absolutely nothing about what would make one tonearm sound better than another - could somebody enlighten me as to what the key differences in engineering might be?
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Post by robbiegong on Feb 27, 2017 21:22:51 GMT
Hi Jules, Not an expert but in terms of 'sound better' then tonearms are subjective like most components in this hifi game. Everything has even a bit of a character therefore one mans meat ...... That said, I do know that a decent fairly non resonant tube is a good start and decent bearings will make a difference. Just to muddy the water, Some are all over the very well engineeered SME's as they are a quality item BUT I've also read someone expressing a dislike for their 'sound' so there you go ............ Oh! there are also different pivot types, some prefer certain ones. I dont know the technicalities of the various pivots types though
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Post by speedysteve on Feb 27, 2017 21:43:20 GMT
Be sure to match the compliance of your cartridge of choice with your arm of choice.
High compliance, low mass arm. Low compliance, high mass arm.
I myself prefer low compliance cartridges, SPU, IO etc.
The better they are engineered, usually the better they sound.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 27, 2017 23:13:21 GMT
I'm familiar with all the basics on tonearms but what I'm getting at, is what actually is this better engineering?
What are you paying for as you move up in price?
Does anyone know?
As far as I can see it's a bit of a grey area in our hobby. Or at least it's grey to me.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 28, 2017 6:47:04 GMT
It's not just down to rigidity. Two of the most rigid arms in the business are the Rega RB300 and SME V. They both sound grey and dull to my ears. I prefer the heavyweights like the Fidelity Research, Zeta and of course my own Dynavector. However, your turntable's suspension may not take any of these. The Jelco SA-750D is a good inexpensive arm and as near universal in application as possible.
What are you paying for? Good materials, good engineering quality, fine bearings, fine tolerances.
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 28, 2017 7:26:46 GMT
I think an important consideration is the ability to reliably and conveniently adjust an arm in all planes while not compromising the aforementioned factors. This may be one of the reasons why you don't get proper height adjustment on a Rega, for example.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 28, 2017 8:46:14 GMT
It's not just down to rigidity. Two of the most rigid arms in the business are the Rega RB300 and SME V. They both sound grey and dull to my ears. I prefer the heavyweights like the Fidelity Research, Zeta and of course my own Dynavector. However, your turntable's suspension may not take any of these. The Jelco SA-750D is a good inexpensive arm and as near universal in application as possible. What are you paying for? Good materials, good engineering quality, fine bearings, fine tolerances. Neither of those arms are at all rigid by AK's criteria. Nor are they non-resonant although the SME is better than the Rega. TBH few serious arms lack adequate bearings. Good bearings are important, particularly if you are using a moving coil, but most arms have decent bearings. Rigidity doesn't mean "locked stiff". Take a look at the thread bearing on the Funk F6 (probably renamed 5 times by now - but the thread bearing entry level Funk arm) Non-resonant is also sort of good, sort of dangerous. Excess damping will be low resonance but dull. The idea is not so much low resonance, as smooth resonance, with no major spikes which obviously colour sound. I haven't heard a SME tube but the Rega rings like a bell. The F.X principle enables my FXR to have arm resonances with no peaks exceeding 3db (the reference for "flat" speakers). Rega and SME have spikes significantly in excess of that figure. In addition rigidity affects tracing accuracy (and a tube isn't rigid in all planes). Of course there is an issue of matching an arms characteristics to a turntable as well. If I had an SL1200 and wanted a modest priced effective upgrade, without fancy isolation of the deck itself, I would look to the thread bearing in Funks range. The FXR works well on my Pink Triangle, since both use low mass, high rigidity, smooth resonances, and work to channel energy away from the stylus for dispersal in the aerolam sub-chassis. IMHO what you are looking for is integrated design using sound engineering and applied physics, rather than any particular "engineered up" feature That said, the SME is perhaps as ergonomically gorgeous as it gets and has a feeling of sheer quality. Just doesn't sound as good to my ear on my deck, and is more about conventional thinking and high grade engineering than it is about physics and design.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 28, 2017 14:10:02 GMT
Very interesting pinkie.
Have you spent some time with the FX3? I admire that AK has tried to something different with this arm instead of tweak tried and tested arms. He's written quite a bit of blurb about it so I will try and work my way through that ...
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 28, 2017 14:13:30 GMT
It's not just down to rigidity. Two of the most rigid arms in the business are the Rega RB300 and SME V. They both sound grey and dull to my ears. I prefer the heavyweights like the Fidelity Research, Zeta and of course my own Dynavector. However, your turntable's suspension may not take any of these. The Jelco SA-750D is a good inexpensive arm and as near universal in application as possible. What are you paying for? Good materials, good engineering quality, fine bearings, fine tolerances. Have you heard the Fidelity FR-64FX? Despite looking very 'ordinary' it has quite a reputation and fetches good second-hand prices ... Must be very well made ... I'm a big admirer of the Fidelity SUT I now use.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 28, 2017 14:34:35 GMT
If you are nice I'll let you see my Fidelity research FR64 on your next visit As you would guess it is of course black
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Post by MartinT on Feb 28, 2017 14:34:43 GMT
Yes I have and all the FRs are great arms. I think mass as well as rigidity and lack of resonances all help to give that 'hewn from rock' feel to the best arms, and a similarly structural quality to the sound.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 28, 2017 14:35:42 GMT
If you are nice I'll let you see my Fidelity research FR64 on your next visit This is one time where I would insist on black to match my deck ... LOL
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Post by pinkie on Feb 28, 2017 15:31:01 GMT
Very interesting pinkie. Have you spent some time with the FX3? I admire that AK has tried to something different with this arm instead of tweak tried and tested arms. He's written quite a bit of blurb about it so I will try and work my way through that ... I've spent a bit of time at the factory with the FX3 but don't have it on my deck. I would like it - it is better. But its more similar than different, and I am very happy with the sound I have. I have realised I've "gone off hifi". Kevin has tried to engage me once or twice - I have a recently acquired Technics U205 sitting in the box untouched. I have a VERY scruffy turntable in bad need of some cosmetic love. But I have a serious case of "if it aint broke don't fix it". I'm just really really enjoying listening to music atm, and don't want all the angst and faff of changing gear and dabbling Ditto FX3. FX3 does F.X a bit better than my FXR and looks heaps prettier, but is an F.X tube just the same. And that is something seriously different from ordinary tubes. I'm going to go off on one again - mail order is not the same as having touchie-feely shops where you can try things. So its a real shame that I suppose its pointless me saying "go and listen to one if you are interested - at least add it to your list of arms to try" cos you presumably can't cos AK has hardly any UK dealers. Enjoy the blurb - but the proof is in the listening. I read heaps about Yamaha CLP clavinova's but there was no substitute for going into a shop and playing one (Sue mostly, I hasten to add).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 16:13:19 GMT
The general consensus out there is that Funk and Pink Triangle before fall short in execution (build and QC) while SME and others are beautifully executed pieces of engineering. I'm sure there are numerous reasons why arms sound different but would suggest the cartridge and turntable to which they are matched is a major factor. I don't think absolute rigidity is necessarily linked to the best sound. I think system matching may be as vital as the arm design itself. It's not so easy to find dealers that are prepared to demonstrate a wide range of arm/turntable separates. Plenty that can do the Rega or the Project ranges that come as a package.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 28, 2017 17:08:36 GMT
That's why knowing what members have in their systems is invaluable. I have learned a lot about the sound of components just from listening to friends' systems. That, and hi-fi shows. Dealers, much less so.
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myles
Rank: Trio
Posts: 153
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tonearms
Feb 28, 2017 17:18:11 GMT
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Post by myles on Feb 28, 2017 17:18:11 GMT
It's not just down to rigidity. Two of the most rigid arms in the business are the Rega RB300 and SME V. They both sound grey and dull to my ears. I prefer the heavyweights like the Fidelity Research, Zeta and of course my own Dynavector. However, your turntable's suspension may not take any of these. The Jelco SA-750D is a good inexpensive arm and as near universal in application as possible. What are you paying for? Good materials, good engineering quality, fine bearings, fine tolerances. I've just bought a Jelco SA-750D to go on my Interspace Jr in place of an RB300 and am looking forward to hearing the difference.
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Post by speedysteve on Feb 28, 2017 18:41:41 GMT
Mines a Fidelity Research FR64s, Silver wired BTW.
Their heavy headshell is nice too.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Feb 28, 2017 19:10:00 GMT
I've always been a Hadcock 228 fan. But as much as I love it, I just find it hard to see it as an £800 arm. Saturday I was reading about John Bicht's (Mission 774 designer) Versalabs Dynamic turntable design. For the arm, he went back to the 774 design elements, looking at improving on the design. However, early on, he came to the conclusion that conventional arms were too flawed because of inherent weaknesses associated with tubes. His answer was to do away with the tube and instead use a short platform connect to an air bearing design. I've always liked the look of the turntable/arm/stand, as a whole. It has a functional simplicity that's timeless.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 28, 2017 20:09:23 GMT
Mines a Fidelity Research FR64s, Silver wired BTW. Their heavy headshell is nice too. Excellent - what were you using before and any chance of a photo of deck and arm in situ?
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 28, 2017 20:15:29 GMT
Very interesting pinkie. Have you spent some time with the FX3? I admire that AK has tried to something different with this arm instead of tweak tried and tested arms. He's written quite a bit of blurb about it so I will try and work my way through that ... I'm going to go off on one again - mail order is not the same as having touchie-feely shops where you can try things. So its a real shame that I suppose its pointless me saying "go and listen to one if you are interested - at least add it to your list of arms to try" cos you presumably can't cos AK has hardly any UK dealers. To be fair to Funk they do have a 30 day trial offer with free shipping, if you don't live in range of one of the few UK dealers ... I'd be more interested in that anyway, as for me not much point in listening to an arm on a completely different design of deck ...
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