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Post by ChrisB on Jul 6, 2014 11:26:57 GMT
Perhaps, but not with the coffee that I've just been drinking (yeuch!)
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Post by Dave on Jul 6, 2014 11:40:08 GMT
A recommendation from a satisfied customer is the best promotion of all and is, in fact, a great tribute to the skill of the designer and manufacturer of that product. Reputation is everything in business, hard to achieve and yet so easy to lose. As my granddad would often say, the best products sell themselves and such products speak volumes for those involved in their conception.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 12:08:35 GMT
And that is why manufacturers distributors and retailers try to take advantage of it and manipulate it. Deals are done for free loans in exchange for write ups, some people have even been paid of given the equipment free in exchange for what they write, though that applied far more to magazine reviewers. It is the corrupt old industry trying to impose its corruption on the new on-line industry.
Now the big problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff, the honest enthusiast from the Shill. Some times there are obvious clues but often it is a case of it happens so much with this guy (or gal) it has to be suss. The main sad thing is the sheep that pile in after the event as though they are incapable of making their own judgements. Sometimes this shilling can almost be accidental as with friendship based corruption - forum members are groomed by certain trade members, favours are given, friendship offered and accepted, so they become a shill as a fait accompli.
I refuse to enter into any of these games and see it as a function of HFS to expose it. I even avoid friendship, friendly mutual respect is all that is required for a good product customer relationship, any thing else is a source for this corruption.
Forum owners need to be vigilant to stop their forum being used. Though there is at least one forum where it seems to be encouraged when it is the owner who is getting the slurp and banned when other do it.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 12:44:28 GMT
No-one is being fleeced, ripped off, or conned. The price is set - the customer makes their own judgement whether to buy or not according to the evidence available to them. This is my hobby horse. It is very rare indeed that someone is 'ripped off' unless they are not capable of making a decision for themselves. Mostly, people pay what they are prepared to pay, or don't as the case may be. There is no rip-off in either case.
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 6, 2014 12:46:35 GMT
Exactly.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 12:48:02 GMT
Then how and why are "flavours of the month" created, and do you see those as good things? I think this is normal forum and market dynamics at work. There is no witch cackling in the corner, stirring the pot and marvelling at having created another marvel product. It's natural that people will enthuse about something they have tried and liked, and some others may follow suit. Sometimes something really special is introduced to the good of many.
The mark of a truly great product will always be longevity.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 12:50:43 GMT
Forum owners need to be vigilant to stop their forum being used. We will always try, but we are not superhumans and may make mistakes.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 12:54:58 GMT
When a product costs £100 to build and it is sold for £200 it is a bargain. When a product costs £100 to build and is sold for £400 it is acceptable especially if there is a dealer profit margin to maintain. But if a product costing £100 to build and then sells for over £1000 it is a rip-off, and when it sells for over £10k as some do then it is bordering on criminal.
It only happens in the domestic industry and there is a history of this behaviour. Pro product are only in the first two categories.
Surely this is logic.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 13:05:39 GMT
But if a product costing £100 to build and then sells for over £1000 it is a rip-off I fundamentally disagree. Only a few may buy it, but those few were prepared to pay the price. Who is being ripped off?
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 13:15:00 GMT
It is purely a question of mathematics, what you are saying is not that that it is not a rip-off, which it unquestionably is, it is the fact that *you* don't mind being ripped-off.
If you had the ability to put up poll and list my four costings and asked members if bargain, acceptable, rip-off, criminal then I am sure my POV would be the consensus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 13:44:51 GMT
Forum owners need to be vigilant to stop their forum being used. We will always try, but we are not superhumans and may make mistakes. And please don't ban people, it ruins forums. Most of us are intelligent enough to see a shill or a troll from a mile off, leave it to the members to choose who they want to read. If people are offended by others they can always block them. Lawrence
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 13:51:04 GMT
It is purely a question of mathematics, what you are saying is not that that it is not a rip-off, which it unquestionably is, it is the fact that *you* don't mind being ripped-off. If you had the ability to put up poll and list my four costings and asked members if bargain, acceptable, rip-off, criminal then I am sure my POV would be the consensus. So would you shut down Linn and Naim? What about Patek Phillippe and Louis Vuitton? How would you construct and police the law that would make them illegal? What about the tens of thousands of people whose livelihoods depend on them? And what about the public services that are paid for out of the taxes that they generate, collect and hand over to the Exchequer? Lawrence
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 13:56:14 GMT
You maybe perceptive enough, but history has proved that shilling and spamming works in the short term. There is an argument that it all balances out with lower sales in the future.
But the simple fact is the perpetrators definitely think the process is worthwhile. In my opinion there is one who's whole marketing strategy is based on it, and as one campaign runs out another one with a different product is prepared to replace it, and it would be nice to see him banned from all forums. But the others that just try it on will be warned off by good and intelligent moderation.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 13:59:08 GMT
It is purely a question of mathematics, what you are saying is not that that it is not a rip-off, which it unquestionably is, it is the fact that *you* don't mind being ripped-off. If you had the ability to put up poll and list my four costings and asked members if bargain, acceptable, rip-off, criminal then I am sure my POV would be the consensus. So would you shut down Linn and Naim? What about Patek Phillippe and Louis Vuitton? How would you construct and police the law that would make them illegal? What about the tens of thousands of people whose livelihoods depend on them? And what about the public services that are paid for out of the taxes that they generate, collect and hand over to the Exchequer? Lawrence It is obviously not legally illegal, it is emotively illegal. Linn and Naim are taking the piss out of committed customers in a dying market, anyone with any intelligence can see that. Retirements are being prepared for. Watches are jewelry so there is not the same imperative. It could be said something like a Ferrari is jewelry as well. I am commenting for the majority of hi-fi enthusiast, not idiots or people with more money than sense.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 14:06:19 GMT
If you had the ability to put up poll and list my four costings and asked members if bargain, acceptable, rip-off, criminal then I am sure my POV would be the consensus. It doesn't work. You could only poll those who have bought something at a high price, and are they going to say they were ripped off?
You cannot poll anyone who hasn't bought the item as it's obvious they weren't ripped off as they didn't buy.
Simple logic!
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 14:09:30 GMT
And please don't ban people, it ruins forums. Most of us are intelligent enough to see a shill or a troll from a mile off, leave it to the members to choose who they want to read.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 14:09:45 GMT
Perception old boy - perception. Everyone can have an opinion.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 14:14:53 GMT
Indeed
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 14:31:58 GMT
what happened to the discussion around subjectivism and objectivism?
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Post by MartinT on Jul 6, 2014 14:33:10 GMT
On the subject of 'emotively illegal', I have some feelings on this although the name could be changed to something more appropriate.
In the educational sector, I see products which are bumped up in price 2x or 3x by educational suppliers because they know schools will just select and pay rather than do their market research. Teachers rarely have a say as schools often purchase centrally in bulk. I often look for the equivalent item in the general IT market and am amazed at the lower prices being charged. Consequently, I rarely use educational IT suppliers.
I think Naim are in this category, especially with an example I have personal experience of, the NAP500. This power amp is jaw droppingly, eye wateringly priced. There is no earthly reason for the circa £18k list price that I can see. When we did a direct comparison with my Chord SPM-1200E, it comprehensively outperformed the Naim. The Chord is now circa £9k list. When I'm told that it, too, is expensive, I can at least point to the highly complex switched mode power supply and superb construction quality as some justification, as well as the very high sound quality. I'm sure, though, that no owner of a NAP500 would admit to being ripped off. Are Naim emotively charging is a far harder question to answer.
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