Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 21:02:50 GMT
I see we have one of these threads that nearly always ends in a 20 paces at dawn scenario. I care not for either position as I mainly use kit that is either from recording studios, cinemas or derived from such on the premise that it us usually very well designed, built like a battleship, is servicable and I find the SQ is eminently enjoyable. I don't rely on recommendations from others as my ears are firmly fixed to my head not to somebody else, but I do also occasionally try things out I've read about in magazines and on forums and if I don't feel it works then I pass the kit on. I make my own choices and don't need a self appointed Mary Long to determine what I should or shouldn't read. Whilst the ultimate aim is listening to music, I also take pleasure in the ownership of the equipment , and in particular, vintage equipment that can more than hold it's own against any current offerings. An analogy I suppose is that I would rather be driving a Ferrari P4 than a 458. Anyway, just my tuppence worth so, as you were and please carry on as before.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 21:09:16 GMT
Andy - Well you are the sort of person who is not influenced by the games, good, if we can get most to take your attitude I can assure I will shut up. Job done.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 21:12:18 GMT
I would place myself firmly on the objectivist side of the line. For me the key difference between subjectivists and objectivists is that objectivists generally aim to believe things on the basis of evidence. The scientific method is how we assess evidence and arrive at knowledge (justified true belief). There are way too many snake oil salesmen out there to put faith in just my ears and the latest fashion. Lawrence How do you objectively decide which peice of music you like on your system, with your ears or do you plug in test gear. If it is your ears, then all you need to learn is how to do this when judging equipment - job done.
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 21:24:40 GMT
Dave c. I said no pedants. And in response I give you serge. Paraphrasing 400 of years of intellectual theory sacrifices nuance
.losenot what more evidence do I need but my ears. Need to refine your definition.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 21:29:12 GMT
I would place myself firmly on the objectivist side of the line. For me the key difference between subjectivists and objectivists is that objectivists generally aim to believe things on the basis of evidence. The scientific method is how we assess evidence and arrive at knowledge (justified true belief). There are way too many snake oil salesmen out there to put faith in just my ears and the latest fashion. Lawrence How do you objectively decide which peice of music you like on your system, with your ears or do you plug in test gear. If it is your ears, then all you need to learn is how to do this when judging equipment - job done. A good point, well made If I'm spending £10 or £20 on a record then I would of course trust my ears. If someone tries to sell me a £600 usb cable, I don't have the slightest interest in what my ears tell me because I believe it can't be better than a £5 cable. If I think it sounds better it's all down to expectation bias and placebo effects. Lawrence
|
|
|
Post by flatpopely on Jul 5, 2014 21:31:33 GMT
I agree Serge is at the extreme of objectivist opinion, perhaps defines it, but he's a nice guy and gave me advice on my NAIM bake off. It was run under objectivist terms and ergo when subjective results emerged everyone was a winner.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 21:53:37 GMT
Lawrence that is a completely different matter. If you are presented with silly priced gear with dubious usage you just ignore it. Or in my case take the piss out of it, which is part of the fun at hifisubjectivist. If people are stupid enough to get involved with such absurdity as £1500 kettle leads that I have just seen reviewed on Pig or your £600 USB lead then they are sad individual who need your sympathy or piss take depending on your sensibility. I hope you realise that is not the stuff I am talking about.
|
|
|
Post by DaveC on Jul 5, 2014 21:56:12 GMT
Dave c. I said no pedants. And in response I give you serge. Paraphrasing 400 of years of intellectual theory sacrifices nuance .losenot what more evidence do I need but my ears. Need to refine your definition. A drop in the ocean and proof that I'm probably right. I don't approve of labels and then others describing them. Dave
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 21:57:42 GMT
I believe that Andrew was merely expressing his opinion as an audio enthusiast and LP12 owner, which he's entitled to do. Marco. Richard [dunn] may not be a diplomat ,but he takes extreme care not to express opinions that may be misconstrued as self promotion . If he [god forbid ] made a lp12 add on , he would be on here telling you the turntable was shit but his add on made it better , if you dont agree send it back for a full refund , but in his opinion you would be better off spending your money on Direct drive .
He makes amplifiers he passionately believes in and considers to be better than anything available for the money at reproducing recorded music , but he will not brag about them and will only ask if your interested to listen . He is brutally honest and holds himself to the same accountability and standards he holds others to , that is why he can be perceived as an arse and difficult and why even when i wince at is occasional obstinacy and belligerence .
MODERATION: personal reference removed i am happy to accept i may be wrong , but it is what i believe . I also believe that any opinion expressed by Richard Dunn is his truth and I would have no hesitation about taking it seriously . And for a hifi manufacturer , I think that may be unique.
I say this because , H/S justifiably may prejudice perceptions and I perceive some of these prejudices effecting perceptions . Do what I do , read the post, decide what you think about it and then see who wrote it .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 22:04:38 GMT
Lawrence that is a completely different matter. If you are presented with silly priced gear with dubious usage you just ignore it. Or in my case take the piss out of it, which is part of the fun at hifisubjectivist. If people are stupid enough to get involved with such absurdity as £1500 kettle leads that I have just seen reviewed on Pig or your £600 USB lead then they are sad individual who need your sympathy or piss take depending on your sensibility. I hope you realise that is not the stuff I am talking about. OK, so what about a £15 USB lead as opposed to an £5 one? A subjectivist would surely have to say the only way to tell between them is to listen, an objectivist would say they will sound the same because mechanically they are effectively identical. Can I ask why it is that you think £1,500 kettle leads are absurd, is that because you have listened to them and can't tell the difference or because your scientific knowledge predicts that they sound the same as a £1 one? Science is a remarkably powerful tool, much more so than many realise. Here is one of my favourite "objectivist" videos from a great scientist :
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 22:09:32 GMT
Dave c. I said no pedants. And in response I give you serge. Paraphrasing 400 of years of intellectual theory sacrifices nuance .losenot what more evidence do I need but my ears. Need to refine your definition. A drop in the ocean and proof that I'm probably right. I don't approve of labels and then others describing them. Dave Dave by the unanimous vote of the members of my family who are still up watching holland and drinking prosecco [ thats 1 out of 6 ] i am the cleverest person on hifi fora , but even i cant argue with your one sentence sophistry
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 22:14:53 GMT
"Can I ask why it is that you think £1,500 kettle leads are absurd, is that because you have listened to them and can't tell the difference or because your scientific knowledge predicts that they sound the same as a £1 one?"
Thats easy , its cause they cost £6.22 to make .
|
|
Marco
Rank: Trio
Banned
Posts: 242
|
Post by Marco on Jul 5, 2014 22:15:22 GMT
Richard [dunn] may not be a diplomat ,but he takes extreme care not to express opinions that may be misconstrued as self promotion . If he [god forbid ] made a lp12 add on , he would be on here telling you the turntable was shit but his add on made it better , if you dont agree send it back for a full refund , but in his opinion you would be better off spending your money on Direct drive . He makes amplifiers he passionately believes in and considers to be better than anything available for the money at reproducing recorded music , but he will not brag about them and will only ask if your interested to listen . He is brutally honest and holds himself to the same accountability and standards he holds others to , that is why he can be perceived as an arse and difficult and why even when i wince at is occasional obstinacy and belligerence . i am happy to accept i may be wrong , but it is what i believe . I also believe that any opinion expressed by Richard Dunn is his truth and I would have no hesitation about taking it seriously . And for a hifi manufacturer , I think that may be unique. I say this because , H/S justifiably may prejudice perceptions and I perceive some of these prejudices effecting perceptions . Do what I do , read the post, decide what you think about it and then see who wrote it . Well, Gerald, we'll just have to agree to disagree on almost all counts, especially the reasons for Andrew's preference of his LP12... No biggie Marco.
|
|
|
Post by flatpopely on Jul 5, 2014 22:20:34 GMT
OK, I see the HFS mafia are on my case.
FWIW I love music and bought an LP12 over 25 years ago; my love is not money driven. Perhaps some sour grapes are yet again being aired, I guess not being part of the Brit Hi-Fi scene when it exploded must still hurt, bad!
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 22:25:48 GMT
Marco , you could of have called me Paul Auster , if you search the pfm archives you will find at least four posts in which you vehemently agree with me and use the phrase nail on head . That was of course before I was unfairly banned and reinstated as Gerald Seems you no longer agree with me . Alas . As for Gerald being Daniel Quinn , that is common knowledge .
|
|
|
Post by danielquinn on Jul 5, 2014 22:29:20 GMT
OK, I see the HFS mafia are on my case. FWIW I love music and bought an LP12 over 25 years ago; my love is not money driven. Perhaps some sour grapes are yet again being aired, I guess not being part of the Brit Hi-Fi scene when it exploded must still hurt, bad! Please make sense . two people cant be a mafia . I have a job and i am far two young to care about what happened 25 years ago .
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 22:30:36 GMT
Lawrence - judgement is empirical as far as I am concerned. I have no need of a hi-fi USB lead so I have no opinion. If I wanted one I would make it, or maybe a couple with different cable and see if I heard any difference. If I hear it after over 40 years experience in this industry I can assure you it wont be self delusion.
Your other kettle lead point is to do with being ripped off, I don't like it, and I don't like to see others ripped off. There comes a point in the making of things that price absurdity takes over from heard judgement, I wouldn't even listen to it as it is just too absurd. If it was made with silver or gold wire studded with diamonds it would be difficult to justify a kettle lead at £1500, as I say it is just an absurd piss-take on the industry.
Talking of rip-off and back to flatpopely's point. When can any sane person justify over £10000 for a fruit box with some machined metal attached, that is basically a known rip off of a 1970's Ariston turntable where the designer was ripped off and basically became so depressed he killed himself drowned in his own vomit from trying to drink himself into oblivion ("Hamish" Robertson). Now that is what should be on the conscience of everyone involved with Linn products.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 22:48:54 GMT
Lawrence - judgement is empirical as far as I am concerned. I have no need of a hi-fi USB lead so I have no opinion. If I wanted one I would make it, or maybe a couple with different cable and see if I heard any difference. If I hear it after over 40 years experience in this industry I can assure you it wont be self delusion. Your other kettle lead point is to do with being ripped off, I don't like it, and I don't like to see others ripped off. There comes a point in the making of things that price absurdity takes over from heard judgement, I wouldn't even listen to it as it is just too absurd. If it was made with silver or gold wire studded with diamonds it would be difficult to justify a kettle lead at £1500, as I say it is just an absurd piss-take on the industry. ...snipped the irrelevant stuff about LP12s I'm not disagreeing that expensive power leads are absurd, I'm trying to get to the reason why you think they are absurd even before you have listened to one. You I think would reject them because there is a tendency for rip-off merchants to prey on the gullible in the hifi industry. The extreme example doesn't work very well because your reason is nothing to do with objectivism v subjectivism, but what about the 2 DAC cables? Just pretend for a second that you do need one and you can't make one because some lunatic on a hifi forum has chopped off your arms with a rusty axe. Would you listen to two different leads before buying or would you base your decision on price, cosmetics and build quality?
|
|
Marco
Rank: Trio
Banned
Posts: 242
|
Post by Marco on Jul 5, 2014 22:57:20 GMT
Marco , you could of have called me Paul Auster , if you search the pfm archives you will find at least four posts in which you vehemently agree with me and use the phrase nail on head . That was of course before I was unfairly banned and reinstated as Gerald Seems you no longer agree with me . Alas . As for Gerald being Daniel Quinn , that is common knowledge . Sorry, I made a mistake. I believe Dennis is your real name. In any case, if I agree with you, I'll say so. However, on this occasion I disagree. Btw, in the interests of accuracy, you were not banned (still are not banned) from AoS. You chose to resign. If you can remember your password, there's nothing stopping you from posting right now! Marco.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisB on Jul 5, 2014 22:57:53 GMT
Right, historical arguments are spoiling what was a rather interesting discussion. If you want to continue those squabbles, then do it elsewhere. TAS is not here for that.
|
|