|
Post by flatpopely on Jul 5, 2014 23:01:00 GMT
Agreed Chris.
I will withdraw from this.
Andrew.
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jul 5, 2014 23:01:46 GMT
Well now, this has been an interesting and somewhat surprising read. Apart from a couple of minor faux pas I am super-impressed at how reasoned and informative this thread has been so far, and for that reason I think all participants deserve a pat on the back... If Carlsberg made forums...
EDIT: Oh dear, maybe I spoke too soon... lol
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 23:04:47 GMT
Lawrence - Because my sanity has a cut off point. There are things in this industry that *are* so called foo IMO, but it is limited mainly to cables as I make them and I know what it costs to make them, but there are some other ridiculously priced things, .
Our industry contains many charlatans who are trying to rip you off, but the fact that they exist does not means subjective assessment is foo or fairy dust, it means there are nasty men wanting to take your money. The two do not relate.
You know perfectly well (or should) that I am referring largely to sources, amps and speakers, and sensibly priced cables. So how did you choose your system of Linn LP12, RFC, Naim, Ruark and some wires as you quote. Did you just read the specs and go to a dealer and buy them, or did you listen to the system and compare it with other gear before you got out your money. Do you now feel you have the ultimate and your mind is now closed to further choice.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 23:09:41 GMT
Chris - Well good luck in stopping it. You have someone here who has spent most of his on line history insulting, banning, libeling, threatening people on the net, perhaps that is the person you should deal with. Link removed the site will not be used to encourage battles that have taken place elsewhere in the past
|
|
|
Post by ChrisB on Jul 5, 2014 23:24:15 GMT
I just said that you should leave your old arguments for somewhere other than here. I also told you that in the first thread you posted in here. You have attacked two members of this forum today, something you have already been pulled up for. We don't have many rules and so far you are the only member who has broken any of them.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 23:33:51 GMT
I have made no personal attacks since that first thread, I have published facts so people can make their own judgements.
You have now removed factual information that is not of my making. It is publicly available so its removal can only be described as censorship.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 23:34:10 GMT
Lawrence - Because my sanity has a cut off point. There are things in this industry that *are* so called foo IMO, but it is limited mainly to cables as I make them and I know what it costs to make them, but there are some other ridiculously priced things, . Our industry contains many charlatans who are trying to rip you off, but the fact that they exist does not means subjective assessment is foo or fairy dust, it means there are nasty men wanting to take your money. The two do not relate. You know perfectly well (or should) that I am referring largely to sources, amps and speakers, and sensibly priced cables. So how did you choose your system of Linn LP12, RFC, Naim, Ruark and some wires as you quote. Did you just read the specs and go to a dealer and buy them, or did you listen to the system and compare it with other gear before you got out your money. Do you now feel you have the ultimate and your mind is now closed to further choice. You still haven't answered the question about the USB leads... My purchase decision was based on both objective and subjective factors. Partly I admit I wanted equipment that could easily be serviced and maintained by someone else as I'm not very practical, and had a reputation for being well made, preferably British. I also have a lot more money than sense. Of course I wouldn't for a second say that I have an ultimate system, that would be ridiculous, and isn't my aim. My system does however sound very good and has proved reliable so I'm happy to stop tinkering and spend my time enjoying it. I'm not the type to box swap without a good reason, I still have a CRT TV ! I realise new Linn and Naim kit is out-gunned by more modern designs and is ridiculously expensive. My LP12 is early 1980s (with a 90s arm added by the previous owner) and the Naims are early 90s. The Ruarks are by far the most engaging and enjoyable speakers I have heard, and I think would compete with virtually anything else in the environment in which I use them. All of my cables have been bought on price to be cheap, that's the objectivist in me coming out.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 5, 2014 23:45:58 GMT
Well sorry I thought I had. I told you I have no opinion apart from knowing that no sensible person can justify a £600 price tag for a USB lead. I only use them to connect my printer, camera etc so I make no special arrangements. If I was to get involved with computer audio then I would investigate and I would investigate subjectively. If I heard no difference I would use the cheapest available.
The rest of your post just goes to show you are a subjectivist who prefers not to admit it.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisB on Jul 5, 2014 23:57:19 GMT
I have made no personal attacks since that first thread... You accused someone of spamming when all they were doing was expressing an enthusiasm for their own record player. A similar enthusiasm to one you expressed about yours. - I call that an attack. What you posted just now can be construed to be nothing other than an attack. The URL that you linked to is still publicly available, I'm sure. If anyone is interested in your squabbles with people from past times (and I can assure you that there are far fewer than you may think), then they will find it should they be so motivated. I'll say it again, your old arguments are not welcome here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 0:06:51 GMT
Well sorry I thought I had. I told you I have no opinion apart from knowing that no sensible person can justify a £600 price tag for a USB lead. I only use them to connect my printer, camera etc so I make no special arrangements. If I was to get involved with computer audio then I would investigate and I would investigate subjectively. If I heard no difference I would use the cheapest available. The rest of your post just goes to show you are a subjectivist who prefers not to admit it. Maybe, or perhaps an incompetent objectivist? My preference for vinyl does smack of subjectivism I will admit. There is a difference in approach however as I wouldn't even bother listening to two different USB leads. I would also never consider "high end" audio cables or interconnects as I know the difference in sound, if detectable at all, is miniscule.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 0:13:12 GMT
As following posts including from you confirmed he no longer has that company so it makes my post invalid. As far as I knew the company was still trading which made my comment valid. The history of his spamming is in the PFM archive for all to read.
What did I post just now that was an attack, you have lost me. If you mean the link you removed, how can a publicly available series of posts on a forum be an attack by me, it is an attack by them defending themselves from attacks on them by this individual. Once again this is purely blaming the piano player because you don't like the tune, I didn't write the tune. If it is something else then please tell me.
I would welcome *anyone* quoting anything on-line about me as long as truthful and not libel and would not consider it an attack in any way. I am very much a believer that if you make your bed then you have to sleep in it.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 0:15:43 GMT
Lawrence - you would have far more credibility if you did listen and then said "I told you so", or not as the case maybe.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisB on Jul 6, 2014 0:30:03 GMT
As following posts including from you confirmed he no longer has that company so it makes my post invalid. As far as I knew the company was still trading which made my comment valid. The history of his spamming is in the PFM archive for all to read. What did I post just now that was an attack, you have lost me. If you mean the link you removed, how can a publicly available series of posts on a forum be an attack by me, it is an attack by them defending themselves from attacks on them by this individual. Once again this is purely blaming the piano player because you don't like the tune, I didn't write the tune. If it is something else then please tell me. I would welcome *anyone* quoting anything on-line about me as long as truthful and not libel and would not consider it an attack in any way. I am very much a believer that if you make your bed then you have to sleep in it. You are trying to play games with me - it is clear to anyone reading this what is going on. In both cases you meant ill intent towards another member whether your words were factual or not. In the first case, because you were wrong doesn't change the intent. A civilised response would be an apology to Andrew.
|
|
|
Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 6, 2014 0:40:07 GMT
No games, just reality. A civilised response would be an apology to me for biased moderation.
I have ill intent for a few people that doesn't make what I say as an insult, which is what I am accused of. For anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of English would see no insult in *my* words. I have no need to appologise to Flatty (a nickname I have used for a long time with no insult intent) as the following posts made mine invalid but did not invalidate the intent as as I said to my knowledge he was still trading, so my bad.
|
|
|
Post by flatpopely on Jul 6, 2014 1:01:01 GMT
Richard.
I think the main issue is that people can be passionate and in the trade.
Loving what you make is not spamming.....it's loving what you do.
I am not in the hi if trade now, my company sells AV kit....no vinyl in sight!
Andrew.
Edit. Sorry needed to get things straight, now over and out.
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 6, 2014 6:49:34 GMT
Richard you have you own site to carry on you spat with other people. You have added greatly to the debate here bringing a lot of good reflective thoughts on this subject. So I am politely asking that you respect us on this
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 7:10:57 GMT
Why am I not surprised that this appears to be, if not the longest thread so far, certainly one of them. Why am I also not surprised that it has been contaminated by un-neccessary personality clashes. Why this stuff can't be left at home I just don't know. Discussion is actually possible without resorting to personal attacks and attempted character assassination.
As far as the subject of the thread is concerned, I, as said before, lean toward the objective in that I do believe that if measurements were necessary in order to design the equipment in the first place, they must have some relevance further down the line.
If, as I believe and have found, the differences between good (OK that definition of 'good' may be a problem) are going to be small, then the choice will come down to how well they are built, how they look and what pleasure I will get from owning them. I appreciate that two of those are purely emotional judgements.
Provided I can hear a clear difference between the sound of various types of instrument, the difference between various performances of a piece of music is glaringly obvious and I can sit and get lost in the music, the equipment is doing its job.
As far as leads etc are concerned, it has been MY experience that its 90% foo and I'm not interested. I just don't get involved in those threads but feel people should be free to spend their cash in any way they choose, if they are being led up the garden path that is not my problem - it ain't going to kill them. Which comes back to the beginning. I don't wish to police a public forum because its none of my business, its down to the owners and moderators.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 7:13:24 GMT
Perhaps we could get back on the topic. I'm sure any public information about certain past behaviours is researchable on the web and most of us here are aware or have been made aware of the past elsewhere. I suppose the important thing is that people behave themselves when on here. I think the problem that has upset the Doc has been what amounts to bullying on other forums whether that is by so called subjectivists or objectivists. The thing is to tolerate others views such as not accusing people who see no difference from replacing kettle leads or power supplies as 'objectivists'.
I think most of us use our ears when deciding on equipment but appearance in terms of looking acceptable, quality feel and WAF factor play their part. Also so called synergy put forward by self declared subjectivists is mostly related to electrical matching or design specification. Unfortunately some hi-fi brands are rather vague in that area especially those involved in cable marketing.
|
|
|
Post by AlanS on Jul 6, 2014 7:46:07 GMT
Perhaps we could get back on the topic. I'm sure any public information about certain past behaviours is researchable on the web and most of us here are aware or have been made aware of the past elsewhere. I suppose the important thing is that people behave themselves when on here. I think the problem that has upset the Doc has been what amounts to bullying on other forums whether that is by so called subjectivists or objectivists. The thing is to tolerate others views such as not accusing people who see no difference from replacing kettle leads or power supplies as 'objectivists'. I think most of us use our ears when deciding on equipment but appearance in terms of looking acceptable, quality feel and WAF factor play their part. Also so called synergy put forward by self declared subjectivists is mostly related to electrical matching or design specification. Unfortunately some hi-fi brands are rather vague in that area especially those involved in cable marketing. Thank you. i wish I had the clarity of mind and command of English to make that post. I particularly welcomed the kettle lead observation, I failed to hear much if any obvious difference yet for saying so I was branded as someone to silence, whilst lead advocates could wax freely. If your system benefits all power to you and your lead supplier. If no perceptable change in mine then one less thing to waste time buying and trying. it does not mean I think you are not hearing the benefit. I would like to experience a mains lead replaced system with a swap back to standard lead and have my ears/eyes opened. Every time I ask offers fail to be made.
|
|
|
Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jul 6, 2014 8:40:04 GMT
I've not heard mains cables make much if any difference in my system, but that is probably down to the use of a large balanced transformer removing most of the crap on the mains in the first place. . I have however, heard obvious differences between USB cables. Given at that point we were using a laptop and a V-Link then into my dac, there may be more at work than just the cable, but the differences were obvious. Go figure.
|
|