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Post by MartinT on Dec 18, 2015 19:25:57 GMT
No idea where it at against a state of the art CD player as detail and musical flow have improved since the last time you heard it Heh, heh, the thing is so has my disc spinner!
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Post by John on Dec 18, 2015 20:09:38 GMT
Lol
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Post by John on Dec 18, 2015 20:11:01 GMT
Thanks Tony I stay away from Audiophile Otimizer
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 19:45:07 GMT
Have spent most of today getting hands on with windows 10 internal workings In some ways it us very intuitive and easy to navigate in other ways there are too many services interlinked with each other especially based around the apps and Internet connectivity Boot up issues with combinations of basic SSD and NVMe are frustrating at best, speed and data integrity seems improved and NVMe lload speeds are warp drive ( boot up under 3 seconds) so far 32 processes and around 420 threads processor sits around 0.76Ghz when having to USB ? and the windows sheell disabling windows audio is a big upgrade however I use a very different method of transmitting data internally this makes a significant difference only problem is currently I have rigged up a temporary software patch for our own player and transfer system but it's not as stable as the the previous version however it is very promising so a lot more work on that area and W10 registry will pay dividens Trying out twin NVMe lanes with the OS and software on one and the music files on the other this is the way go without doubt I have four Samgsung 850 pro 1 Tb drives and they ate no sloutch at all but the NVMe makes them seem like also rans not just the speed but the purity if the sound feels more realistic even with USB One interesting stat the CPU temperate is sitting at 32C and power usage is 14watts so counter intuitive In the new year I will finally put a decent GUI on this as well lol Exciting times ahead
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 20:30:17 GMT
Glad someone would find such things exciting. This thread sums up everything that puts me off computer audio. If I play a game of word association, "computer" throws up words like: Hassle, frustration, fiddling, waiting, stalling, fixes, patches, glitches, bugs, incompatibility, Mouse-rage, and many more in a similar vein. Conversely, "music" throws up: Relaxation, invigoration, peace, harmony, intensity, spirituality, humanity. Tony's last post reads like a ritual to open the gates off Hell No offence to those who feel differently but any music that isn't plug and play at the most basic level isn't worth considering for me.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 19, 2015 20:39:49 GMT
Computing can be hassle-free if you want it to be.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 20:46:28 GMT
I only looked in on this thread because I remember someone posting that Bug Head was apparently the work of a genius and oh, so intuitive. It's took one post form Tony C to convince me that it's yet another product that belongs in a torture chamber AFAIC. At least I know I'm not missing anything here and won't have to look back. Off to listen to a computer-free music system. To each their own
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Post by MartinT on Dec 19, 2015 20:57:25 GMT
Just remember that most modern components, Sky box, streamer etc. run on SOCs (System on a Chip) so you can't really have a computer-free music system
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Post by John on Dec 19, 2015 20:57:28 GMT
Yes to each there own
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 20:59:55 GMT
Point taken. I'm actually listening to Smooth Radio via my BT Youview box. As long as I can't detect the presence of a computer at the point of use, I'm happy. One day all "computer" products will be seamless. I just hope it happens in my lifetime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 21:01:58 GMT
Well so far it made a mockery of a 5 box atomic clocked equipped top flight CD player Remember I do this for a living and am getting remunerate for so there is incentive after all I could be sat behind a desk in job that bore so much I would be posting on forums ever 30 minutes or so ?
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Post by Greg on Dec 20, 2015 0:19:20 GMT
Remember I do this for a living and am getting remunerate for so there is incentive after all I could be sat behind a desk in job that bore so much I would be posting on forums ever 30 minutes or so ? Arr, yes, understand. No point in catching RD syndrome.
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Post by John on Dec 20, 2015 7:14:26 GMT
Just some thoughts based on Andrew Observations Agree its a pain to operate but beats all the other players I tried in terms of SQ and I tried most of them. However it has the worst interface I tried too. Its free and is the main reason why I champion it You need a computer with 16gb double ram memory to get the very best out of it plus I5 and the following based Windows programes to get the best out of it R2 or Windows 10. Due to the developer OCD nature it has constantly been updated. This has been quite a ride. Sometimes the designer moves sideways , very occasionally backwards but on. I tend to wait till feedback elsewhere on the net before I upgrade on the whole there has been a steady increase SQ Since the last time Martin heard it it gone up several steps in performance and was not bad then I agree its not for everyone Tony still has the based digital system I heard and has a lot better interface. On the whole I am willing to sacrifice functionality over performance anytime. Others will have different view points
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Bug Head
Dec 21, 2015 23:08:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by Clive on Dec 21, 2015 23:08:17 GMT
I suppose many use CD or files with sane players because they are so easy to use. Vinyl as we know is a PITA. Bug Head is like vinyl in that it's a PITA to use. It's a lot like good vinyl in sound too. I do however understand that most folks can't be bothered to get to grips with Buh Head. Foobar and even MQn don't come close to the depth and atmosphere Bug Head delivers via a 16Gb double sided memory PC. You have to put up with a 1m 53s wait before it'll pkay an album. Be warned...its SQ may come as a shock as will its contradictions.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 22, 2015 8:52:57 GMT
...as does TonyC's own design file player, which is truly superb (but at a price).
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Bug Head
Dec 22, 2015 10:05:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by Clive on Dec 22, 2015 10:05:49 GMT
I realise some have heard Tony's hardware...fixing the issues at source is of course the ideal approach. Is the computer available commercially and if so what's its called?
It'll interesting to understand how devices such as Regen and more so John Westlake's Detox manage to clean up the signal polluted by noisy hardware. We are still only barely mid-journey with file based audio in terms of reaching SQ excellence. I'm hoping the cost of true excellence will drop but will this be specialised hardware (transport), data scrubbers or software players....naturally a combination of all these is likely. It does seem that once we really understand all the noise reaching the DAC there should be some relatively simple solutions.
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Post by John on Dec 22, 2015 10:42:43 GMT
Tony C is the best I heard but a lot has gone into his server in terms of hardware as well as software development I think we still scratching on the service as a whole Have you heard John Westlake Detox Clive?
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Bug Head
Dec 22, 2015 10:58:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Clive on Dec 22, 2015 10:58:26 GMT
Hi John, the Detox is close to going onto production. No one has heard it yet! I'm on the list for it....it'll be intetesting to find out whether the OTT filtering of RF with USB makes much difference. I've always felt that RF is what influences USB cable differences as well as differences between USB inputs, Detox should help a great deal in understanding the effects of RF on DAC ground planes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 11:29:34 GMT
Clive
With the USB signal pathway from a computer there is a great deal of noise (both surrounding electrical and RFI) especially now with USB 3 Everything in the a pathway has an effect USB by its very nature is really no conducive to quality audio, that said it can be made to sound good.
I stopped using USB personally as I could not reduce the latency below 3.8Ms which over say a normal 1m usb cable is not good in terms of signal integrity when you compare it to a quality broadcast system.
Again this brings into CPU accuracy, run times, generated RFI, those delightful DC<>DC regulators and not so good inductors.
I started this project back in 2008 and still have the original XP pro version, and it still manages to embarrass a few £5-6K cd players even now.
The system I use is a development piece which I use to produce other structured systems which a few manufacturers integrate into their own products.
It is an ongoing project and sometimes you go sideways, sometimes you go back and occasionally you go forward.
The playback software we use is 8 years old with just various adjustments made for new formats, however thus far have not felt another product generates a more natural, grain free musical presentation.
Bug Head is the product of an obsessive, clever person who needs to keep a very active mind, which is why a great deal of code is out of date within a week or so, as the programmer is off on another tangent.
Reminds me of a younger me only with racing engines rather than computers, "I can hone that bore to 3 tenths of thou with this Delepena unit"
If you have the patience, some quality understanding of the O.S. and can perform clean installs every so often, then it is very worth the effort.
For the majority of the population they would not give it the time of day, as they just want to sit down and press a button.
I can see in the not to distant future a Pi sized box capable of a £10K playback on ANY optical media format and FBA media, all possibly outputs and cost around £1K
In the mean time I will keep tinkering away, and by one of those odd chances while getting W10 to function the way I would like it to I have interpenetrated another method of loading the files into ram thus gaining some performance for the current reference.
Next is to attempt the file loading into the NMVe's though configuring these drives is not a simple task as the technology is very new.
Interesting subject perhaps a TAS meet up on this at some point?
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Post by Clive on Dec 22, 2015 13:59:41 GMT
Tony,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The the Bug Head developer has self-proclaimed his schizophrenia and possibly he has some other issues on that spectrum. He's certainly OCD in terms of trying out code. It's been fun over the last year or so, maybe he's at the end of the development now but we've been told this previously...
Bug Head as you say is not for the masses but then again neither is any non-compressed music reproduction so we're talking minorities within minorities. BTW I'm not meaning music has to be compressed for most people, what I mean is that most people don't care much about quality.
Where I was coming from with my post last night is that I feel poor souls (such as myself) who can still cope with vinyl playback, use RCMs and are fastidious with setup - we are probably the type of minority who can cope with Bug Head. Not only does Bug Head need a similar mindset to that of vinylistas but it also gets very close to the character of a good vinyl setup (or more correclty what I seek from a vinyl setup). By this I mean depth, 3D imaging and substance (lots of other things too...taken for granted). Whether some of these attributes are wholly due to fidelity or distortion is another matter and frankly I don't much care which it is. I use Foobar and MQn for less critical listening but Bug Head for my serious listening. It sounds like your music server does a similar but better job and no doubt is easy to operate. As you may gather vinyl is still my main source though the split is probably 60/40 vinyl/files. I find MQn pretty good but even so it's more like a decent CDP than my primary vinyl deck. I suppose my main points are the Bug Head co-exists well with my vinyl sound and that it cost me £70 to buy extra memory for my laptop so the cost of running Bug Head for me is low and the hassle is high but I can live with that.
BTW I'd happily spend £1k to have a transport that sounds as good or better than Bug Head and works simply but until such a thing arrives I can cope.
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